John Piper says “Over my dead body”

A female high school student in Minnesota is competing in wrestling competitions against male students, and John Piper has some counter-cultural advice to fathers about it.

‘Come on, dads, have some courage. Just say, “Over my dead body are you going to wrestle a girl.” Of course, they will call you prudish. But everything in you knows better.

‘Yes, I am talking to the boys’ fathers. If the girls’ fathers don’t care how boys manhandle their daughters, you will have to take the lead. Give your sons a bigger nobler vision of what it is to be a man. Men don’t fight against women. They fight for women.

‘They called it history-making here in Minneapolis. Yesterday, Elissa Reinsma became the first female to compete in the state high school wrestling tournament. It was not a step forward. Some cultures spend a thousand years unlearning the brutality of men toward women. This is an odd way to make history. Relive prehistory maybe. . .

‘Okay, dads, here’s what you tell your son. You say, “There will be no belittling comments about her being ‘a girl.’ There will be no sexual slurs. If you get matched with her, you simply say to the judges, ‘Sir, I won’t wrestle a girl. My parents have taught me not to touch a girl that way. I think it would dishonor her. I hope you will match me with a guy. If not, I am willing to be disqualified. It’s that important.'”

‘Be a leader, dad. Your sons need you. The peer pressure is huge. They need manly restraints. They know this is wrong. But then they look around, and the groundswell of conformity seems irresistible. It will take a real man, a real father, to say to his son. “Not on my watch, son. We don’t fight women. I have not raised you that way.”‘

Read the rest here.

54 Responses to John Piper says “Over my dead body”

  1. volfan007 March 5, 2009 at 4:18 pm #

    You know, in most situations, if a boy touched a girl like they are gonna have to touch her in this type wrestling, then they’d be put in jail.

    This is just another sign of our times. Incredible.

    David

  2. Bryan March 5, 2009 at 5:02 pm #

    Denney,

    I kind of find this laughable, and am trying to pinpoint what the issue is here. I have never wrestled, except perhaps on the playground as a young lad, but that wasn’t competitive, so I am not coming from a wrestlers’ perspective. But after reading your post on Piper, it seems that his issue is violence towards women. The problem then is if we carry that logic over, is wrestling promoting violence towards men? I had a friend that wrestled in High School and from what I remember it was quit a tactical sport, and while physical it was not akin to fighting. I think if a girl wants to compete in this sport, what is the big deal. And if it is violence then what are we teaching our boys?

    So then comes what I perceive to be the unstated issue, sexuality. There seems to be this moral outcry that some how a boy might touch a girl in an inappropriate place. But again this argument doesn’t seem to hold, because then is it ok for a boy to touch a boy in the wrong place? This is a competitive sport and from what I understand it is not a sport that often arouses its participants.

    It seems like what we have is a girl who is gifted at wrestling and really wants to pursue it, the problem is she can’t because of her god given gender. If my son wanted to wrestle her I would have no problems with it, in fact to have a problem with it seems quite unjust. I say let the girl wrestle, just like we ought to let Billy Elliot DANCE!

    Cheers,

  3. Darius T March 5, 2009 at 5:37 pm #

    When I was in 6th grade wrestling, I had to wrestle a girl. That was really weird, and I lost since I didn’t know where to put my hands. 🙂

  4. Matthew Staton March 5, 2009 at 5:40 pm #

    I am not in the Piper/Grudem camp on gender roles. Once in a while I agree with Piper and this is one of those times: I am not OK with boys wrestling girls. Hockey I could see (there have been some female goalies). Football, maybe. Basketball, soccer, tennis, running, chess, no problem. But wrestling…

    Let’s just be blunt – what is going to happen to a teenage boy and a teenage girl when they both have their hands, arms, legs all over each other? How can it not have any sexual overtones? It is too personal, too physical.

    I am somewhere in between egal and comp but I hope my son internalizes the idea that you don’t hit girls, you protect them.

  5. Ben March 5, 2009 at 7:22 pm #

    Wow, I don’t know where to start. First, I agree with Brian – while the sport is physical, I would not equate it with violence.

    Second, part of the question seems to be a man’s role towards women. In this case, I would argue that things have gotten confused, to an extent, but it seems that this girl/woman is purposefully seeking out this situation in order to excel. For a male to decline to participate is to do exactly the opposite of protecting her – it is to demoralize her efforts. Now the question must center on what it means to be “female” and the “role” of females. This, I would contend puts the debate squarely where Piper wants it – gender roles.

    I live in Minneapolis, and go to a very small Southern Baptist Church there. We’ve seen many people start coming to our church because of the oppressiveness of Piper’s complimentarianism. Not that they are not complimentarian – they are, but that the level to which Bethlehem Baptist takes this doctrine is too much. My experience is only anecdotal, though.

    In any case, I would like to see a better definition of “violence”, and “defend/protect” to make better sense out of Piper’s point. As it stands now, I would not bat an eye at letting my hypothetical son (my son is very young) wrestle a girl. Piper is prone to telling people that his conscience should rule theirs (cf, the Piper alcohol post somewhere on Denny’s blog), and in most cases, I believe he oversteps his bounds.

  6. Chris Garner March 5, 2009 at 8:02 pm #

    I don’t understand the logic that is coming from people who are commenting that think it’s okay for a young man to get hot and sweaty rolling around on a mat with a girl wearing nothing but spandex and grabbing her in places that he has no business touching her in the name of “sport.” I used to wrestle in high school and my team would from time to time come across another team who had a girl in a lower weight class. I am ashamed to say that we would laugh and joke and tell the guy who was going to wrestle her to do things to her that are not appropriate to post here.

    And on another note, and maybe it’s not outright violence, but a man should not try to inflict physical pain on women to show dominance. I would have figured that would have been obvious, my generation never ceases to amaze me.

  7. Tom Fuerst March 5, 2009 at 8:12 pm #

    It’s not violence. It’s a sport…it’s even art for those who love it.

    If some dude gets hot and heavy b/c he’s wrestling a girl, he needs to take a cold shower AND he’ll probably get his butt kicked b/c that’s the dumbest thing to be thinking about when going into a wrestling match.

    And I agree with Ben’s statements that Piper’s position would demoralize this girl. If she loves wrestling that much, I say let her do it. It’s NOT sexual at all.

  8. Scotty Karber March 5, 2009 at 8:24 pm #

    Ben, Bryan, Tom,

    Are you kidding me! Are you going to tell your son not to touch her breasts? not to try to roll her by putting your arm or hand between her legs? Will you instruct him that it is okay? I think the argument about sport vs violence might be made, but, as noted, inflicting pain is part of wrestling. Sometimes brothers fight – is it the same as a brother fighting his sister?

    There is just no way to justify it.

    Scotty Karber

  9. Carol March 5, 2009 at 8:52 pm #

    Just had this discussion with our barber today. We have a female wrestler in our small town who is making quite a name for herself in the area.

    Our barber was a former state wrestling champion and high school wrestling coach. He was describing all the pain that is inflicted during a match and said he had his nose broken 3 times while in high school! How can a guy breaking a girls nose – or anything else – be a good thing?

    God designed men to be protective toward women, not to dominate by force or aggression. Doing it in the name of “sport” doesn’t excuse it.

    My son has played in a co-ed soccer league. Even that came with its own awkwardness. He was, BY NATURE, reluctant to slam into a girl as he would a guy. He played less aggressively than he would have against guys. The girls, on the other hand, were much more aggressive toward the guys and the refs were much more sympathetic toward the girls.

    As for the groping – if I had a daughter, I would not want a boy of any age to have his hands on her private parts – no matter how pure his motives. Would it be acceptable for a boy to touch a girl in those places in ANY other circumstance? Or a man to touch a woman in those places (other than for medical purposes?) Why do we excuse it for sport?

  10. Tom Fuerst March 5, 2009 at 9:11 pm #

    When brothers fight for fun, then a sister should be allowed to fight in fun too if she wants. It’s FUN. It becomes violent when one is trying to inflict his/her will on another without their permission or out of hatred. Wrestling is completely different than brothers fighting.

    And their not touching her breasts for sexual reasons. It is simply not sexual at all. I’m all for appropriateness when it comes to sexual conduct, but this simply isn’t sexual and too big of a deal is being made out of it in my opinion.

    Dr.’s touch women’s breasts all the time, but nobody think it’s sexual. This isn’t the exact same thing, but my point is that there may be justifiable reasons for touching girls in those places that aren’t sexual AT ALL.

  11. Don Johnson March 5, 2009 at 10:18 pm #

    Deconstruct Piper’s argument, it is fairly easy to do so.

    1. Piper confuses wrestling with fighting. If fighting between a boy and a girl is not right, neither is fighting between a boy and a boy. But wrestling is not fighting, it is a sport.

    2. It seems clear that the girl and the girl’s parents want her to wrestle.

    3. If some boy cannot for ANY reason wrestle with her in good conscience, then he should decline and be willing to be disqualified, Piper got this part right.

    4. The sexual aspect is conspicuous by its absence; as pointed out above, this is likely the real concern but is unstated.

  12. Carol March 5, 2009 at 10:48 pm #

    If you read the entire blog post by Piper, the sexual aspect is not “conspicuous by its absence.”:

    Wrestling obliges you to grab, squeeze, and pull with all your might. If a boy tries not to touch or grasp a wrestler around the chest, or not to let his legs entwine with the other wrestler, or not to slam his full body length on hers, he will wrestle with a handicap. Of course, he is being taught that handicap is not a virtue.

    Get real, dads. You know exactly what almost every healthy boy is thinking. If a jock from Northern Minnesota encircles her around the breasts and twists his leg around her thighs, trust me, he will dream about that tonight. Only in his dream she won’t have clothes on. And if he doesn’t dream it, half the boys in the crowd will. Wake up dads. You know this.

    Certainly, there are boys who can “keep their way pure.” I suppose. But doesn’t God give us a natural modesty that must be overcome if one is going to let a member of the opposite sex grope the private parts? I Cor. 12 talks about certain “unrepresentable parts” being treated with “special modesty.” We live in a hyper-sexualized culture, where the natural, god-given modesties and boundaries are ignored and ridiculed. Male/Female grappling further erodes those boundaries.

  13. Jared March 5, 2009 at 10:59 pm #

    Those commenting that the sexual aspect “is unstated,” didn’t read the rest of the entry.

    Could the coach slap this girl’s butt if she did a good job? Because it’s obviously not “sexual” when he does it to a guy right?

    If your wives wanted to wrestle your neighbor “for fun” and he grabbed her crotch, would you all be okay with that?

    Piper’s theology on gender roles is oppressive? Oppressive = unjustly inflicting hardship or constraint especially on a minority or other subordinate group.

    Don Johnson, point 1 in your argument does not account for 1 Peter 3:7 – “Show honor to women as the weaker vessel.” Maybe you’re right in the end, but equating fighting between a boy and a girl to a boy and a boy is the same jump you accuse Piper of.

    And point 2 is irrelevant to Piper’s position. If her parents were okay with her having premarital sex it wouldn’t make it okay. He’s arguing that men shouldn’t wrestle her regardless of what her parents think.

    Having said all that, I don’t know that I completely agree with Piper, but some of the stuff on here is a bit extreme and illogical.

  14. Ben March 5, 2009 at 11:12 pm #

    Chris and Scott:

    I would agree that there is an appropriate and inappropriate way to handle this.

    Concerning the laughing and joking Chris mentioned, this has little to do with a girl in wrestling, and everything to do with the character of the boy, and the way in which his parents raised him. To link girls wrestling to boys’ disrespect of girls is to put the blame in the wrong place.

    As for the sexual aspect, I agree with Don and others who comment like him. This is not a de facto sexual experience – though I found Darius’ comment funny because it is likely true. Scotty asks a strange question – Would I tell my son not to touch her breasts? I don’t know. But I do know that I would have trained him to treat all people with respect, and to do all things (e.g.,wrestle) with integrity. If he decided wrestling a girl is not something he can do in good conscience, then I would fully support that. If I felt he was wrestling disrespectfully, I would probably pull him from the team. If, however, neither were true, this situation reminds me greatly of meat sacrificed to idols – there is no condemnation if there is no whisper of the conscience.

    On another note, I don’t quite understand the role of Christian freedom and charity for those who agree with Piper here. Can those who agree with the original post fill me in on how they see this issue as not falling under Christian freedom/charity?

  15. volfan007 March 5, 2009 at 11:16 pm #

    Bryan,

    You obviously do not have any daughters. I would not want a boy touching my daughter in “wrestling moves.”

    Tom,

    You obviously dont remember being a teenage boy.

    David

  16. Scott March 5, 2009 at 11:23 pm #

    volfan007,

    You obviously were not a competitive athlete.

    Piper’s article is ridiculous.

  17. Tom Fuerst March 5, 2009 at 11:32 pm #

    Thank you, Ben. I found your comment agreeable and gracious.

    Volf,
    I do remember being a teenage boy. And remember a girl on our team wrestling. The other guys weren’t trying to feel her up…they just didn’t want the humiliation of losing to a girl. They’re not trying to get aroused, they’re trying not to lose…BECAUSE IT’S A SPORT not an orgy (sp?)! This girl is a talented wrestler and she’s wrestling talented guys FOR THE STATE TITLE! If anybody’s thinking sexually, they’re idiots for not focusing on winning. They deserve to lose.

    Jared,
    There’s no *reason* for a coach to touch this girls butt. He can congratulate her in other ways. (Personally, I always found it odd when my coaches did it to me and I knew it wasn’t sexual).

    Second, your comment about my wife wanting to wrestle with my neighbor is completely different than a girl being in an official tournament doing something she loves and has worked hard for. These are not even close to the same things. So different, in fact, that I find the comment completely unreasonable.

    But I’ll say this, if my wife was a gifted wrestler and my neighbor was too. Then, given an ‘official’ setting…where the object is competition, not sexual arousal, then sure, she can wrestle him. But that’s just a silly idea anyway I don’t even know why I felt the need to comment on it.

  18. Chris Garner March 5, 2009 at 11:52 pm #

    Ben,
    I would agree that this is not a de facto sexual situation, but I still believe that any heterosexual teenage boy is going to have sexual feelings the moment his hand grabs the breast of the girl. And for that reason I think any christian father should not allow his son to wrestle her, in order to protect his son from temptation. Also I think condoning the infliction of pain and physical dominance upon a girl sends the wrong message to our sons, even if it isn’t outright violence. I think our culture even has this right by not allowing women to serve in combat MOS’s in our military. That may be a stretch, but it’s no more a stretch compared to Tom’s comparison of wresting to a doctor, since a doctor does what he does out of necessity.

    I don’t think this is an area of christian liberty for the simple fact that I think Scripture tells us how to treat women and anything involved with good wrestling goes against that.

  19. ryan March 5, 2009 at 11:55 pm #

    As one who used to wrestle competitively, I would say the violence argument is a little weak. The sport is physical but so if football. The intent is never to harm another guy but to beat him physically and tactically.

    Yet I am surprised at those who think there would be nothing sexually inappropriate about the contact that would take place. In competitive wrestling your hands end up in places and in grips that would be shocking to see any man hold on a woman. Not to mention that arms, and locks are frequently engaged in the groin area. I would be mortified to think of having a daughter who would be exposed to the contact that I engaged in while wrestling.

  20. Jared March 6, 2009 at 12:08 am #

    Tom,

    It’s not all that different given the reasons of others, “that wrestling is a sport… for fun.” “If boys can fight for fun why not girls” etc. And it was in that light that I proposed the question.

    You felt the need to comment on it because it’s really not all that different. You suggesting that because the girl is passionate about something that ultimately won’t matter any more in light of eternity than the other ways we entertain ourselves.

    The issue is not her passion, but whether it is appropriate and right for men to touch other women who are not their wives in sexual places even though it is not “sexual” for reasons such as entertainment or sport. Your wife wanting to wrestle your neighbor could very well be for entertainment whether she has invested any time in it or anything is on the line is irrelevant. Will any of us be accepted by God or rewarded for how much we loved or excelled in sports? Or will it be the manner we went about them?

    Is it noble for a man to wrestle and physically dominate a woman? Is it moral for a man to touch a woman other than his wife in sexual areas for pure sport or entertainment (or heck, even for money i.e. college scholarship) and not to help or heal them (as in a doctor)?

    What if to start out as a gifted wrestler your wife just wanted to wrestle your neighbor (who, let’s say, wrestled in high school)? You see I can construct a scenario that closely fits your qualifications and the question still stands:

    Is it okay to touch a woman, other than your wife, in a sexual area for sport or entertainment?

  21. Tom Fuerst March 6, 2009 at 12:09 am #

    Chris,
    Just as a note…I said my reference to the Dr. was possibly a bit of a stretch. However, the point was that certain things are permissible given a particular CONTEXT. So please don’t take that comment as me saying there’s a one to one relationship…I know there’s not. My point was context, context, context.

    Ryan,
    If you had to wrestle a girl for the state championship, would you be trying to feel her up? Would any of the guys on your team? Would there have been any sexual arousal at all?

    OR would have merely been trying to win what had worked so hard for? And if you wanted to be the best, you had to wrestle the best…which in this hypothetical situation is a girl. So wouldn’t you want to wrestle the best wrestler in the state to know that you were truly the state champion?

    I just have a hard time believing sex would be on your mind in that situation. Winning would be. At least it would be for me.

  22. Jared March 6, 2009 at 12:09 am #

    *Second paragraph, “is not sufficient reason to dismiss the question.”

  23. Jared March 6, 2009 at 12:25 am #

    For those with the opposing view that did not want to read my ridiculously long post:

    Is it okay to touch a woman, other than your wife, in a sexual area for sport or entertainment?

    Yes or no.

    If yes, please explain why that’s okay.

    It no, please explain how this situation is different just because she is wrestling for the state title, as if that truly mattered at all.

  24. Ryan Kearns March 6, 2009 at 12:32 am #

    Tom I think Jared nails the crux of the matter.

    It is not a question of arousal it is a question of purity, and respect. As I said, I would be mortified to think if I had a daughter and she was being touched for “sport” in some of the ways I engaged in while wrestling.

  25. Tom Fuerst March 6, 2009 at 12:54 am #

    Jared,
    Have you ever played any sports with girls? Seriously, I mean, there could be incidental contact with sexual areas in any sport…getting ‘tagged’ in baseball, for example. Sure it’s more prominent in wrestling, but it’s present in EVERY sport. So, to apply your question – you’d have to not ever play any sports (pick-up or otherwise) with a woman not your wife.

    If I’m in a co-ed softball league and I just tagged a girl out trying to reach a base, and I hit her breast, did I just violate her? Am I eternally in danger b/c of that? It’s just sport…it’s just entertainment, right?

    But if you’ve ever played softball (or any sport for that matter) with a girl, you know that these things can just happen. It’s part of it. (If you want more explicit examples I’ll give them, but the softball one suffices, me thinks.)

    I really am done with he wife/neighbor discussion. It’s silly really. In no possible worlds will that ever happen, so I’ll not respond to that anymore.

    Finally, (and there’s more but I really must go to bed) if your son has worked that hard to get to the state championship, are you really going to ask him to follow Piper’s advice? I’m not. If he’s worked that hard to beat the best, then he deserves that opportunity.

    So to answer your question, there are times when it is okay to touch a woman, other than your wife, in an sexual area for sport and entertainment….as I think my softball example demonstrates.

    I’m pretty sure I didn’t convince you…but, alas, I don’t really mind that you disagree:), but maybe you’ll want to rephrase the question due to the fact that I think I found a pretty easy way out of it.

    *Also, hope I’m not coming off as rude. I really have nothing a stake in this convo, I just find it an interesting question. And, admittedly, I could be wrong.*

    Cheers brothers.

  26. Jared March 6, 2009 at 1:00 am #

    I don’t find you rude at all. I also find your answer unconvincing, as you suspected.

    Wrestling is not incidental as your softball example, it is intentional. It is a fundamental part of the sport.

    Is it okay to intentionally touch a woman other than your wife in a sexual area for entertainment or sport?

    Might I suggest you don’t like the wife analogy because naturally it seems silly and wrong? I think it’s the same with this wrestling bit. The obvious absurdity of it (to me) is the only reason I jumped in here. I can’t remember the last time I responded to a blog.

    I long for your answer to my *revised* question. 🙂

  27. Nathan D March 6, 2009 at 1:48 am #

    Tom,

    I had a roommate in grad school who was an assistant wrestling coach in Louisville, KY. Central High School to be exact. They had a good looking girl on their wrestling team. One of the young men, who made the cut to be on the team before she joined, was kicked off the team. Why? Because he got sexually aroused while wrestling this girl during practice. Wrestlers don’t keep focus 100% of the time so if their mind wanders, then it can certainly wander to places it shouldn’t.

    Let me ask you, was it fair that he was kicked off the team, even though he made try-outs and she didn’t (she was given special permission JUST because she was a girl)? Was it fair that because his body was doing something natural that he gets penalized for it?

    I’m all for women having equal opportunity, but there are some things that women shouldn’t do. Just like men shouldn’t try and have babies, women shouldn’t wrestle men. It CAN be sexually arousing (if not on the mat then surely later on). It IS subjucating women. It is also counter-intuitive. And it makes the girl/woman think that she only has one way she can express her athleticism. As if wrestling were her only choice.

  28. Nathan March 6, 2009 at 8:34 am #

    I read all these posts and the overriding thing that keeps coming to my mind is that you all must be younger than me (48).

    All these arguments, for those who are promoting the “right” of this girl to wrestle boys is the same tactic used to promote women in the military.

    So let me turn the question to this: Is is okay with you for a women to go into battle because she can shoot a rifle well? Should all the men in combat have to “deal with it.”

    We are already periously close to this and it seems to me that the arguments for allowing this girl to wrestle have, as someone said, disregarded 1 Peter 3.

    Regardless of whether you are a complimentarian or egalitarian in the duties of women in the church, it is scary to me how many responses seemingly find no problem with women and men being paired up in sport.

    So, how many of you who favor a woman being able to wrestle against men favor putting women in foxholes with men?

  29. Tom Fuerst March 6, 2009 at 8:50 am #

    Jared,
    Thanks for the discussion. I think it would pscyhologize my participation in this discussion too much to suggest that that is the reason I don’t like your analogy. I really just thought the discussion was interesting, but don’t really care what anyone’s views are. I really didn’t expect it to turn out to be this long of a discussion…really.

    So, if we’re having a serious conversation, what’s at stake for me is first that I wasn’t originally trying to defend anyone’s right EXCEPT my son’s conscience. If he’s worked that hard (and wrestling is probably the hardest sport!), then I’m not asking him to give it up like Piper has. I’m leaving it to his conscience. Whether women should participate in this sport or not is not for me to decide. But I can decide on Christian freedom when I have raised a responsible, God-fearing son.

    The second thing at stake for me is probably my own pride. I was just arguing for the sake of arguing last night. It wasn’t edifying or helpful. I apologize and I was wrong to do that. Part of it was the pride, part of it was not thinking (until it was too late) that I was in a serious conversation. I sinned in that and I’m sorry, brother.

    Thrid, I wonder if the ‘respect’ argument really works. It just seems to me that to bow out of that competition would be disrespectful to what that girl has worked so hard for. But, to be honest, I can see how people who disagree with me can see how that’s exactly why it would be respectful.

    Anyone else who originally agreed with me have any thing to say at this point…I don’t have much time to continue this discussion, but I’ll check back later.

  30. volfan007 March 6, 2009 at 10:36 am #

    I would also have a hard time with my daughter being a cheerleader at the college level. The boys that hold the girls up above their heads have their hands on the private part of the girl…for an extended time. This also means that they’ve practiced this many times in order to be able to do it in games. I personally would not want a boy to have his hand on my girl’s bottom.

    And, I will guarantee you that teen boys are thinking about sexual things when they have their hands on girls in private places in wrestling practice, and in matches. To deny this is to have one’s head in the proverbial sand.

    David

  31. William March 6, 2009 at 10:48 am #

    I agree with volfan007. Anyone who thinks his teenage boy can have extended contact with a girl’s body (in the way being discussed) without some kind of arrousal might have a whole different set of problems that need to be dealt with.

    Trying to raise a son so that he has Godly and pure character is difficult enough… letting him wrestle a girl in competitive fashion is just naive.

  32. Bryan March 6, 2009 at 11:10 am #

    Ok I apologize upfront for not reading all of the post so if a repeat something I am sorry. But through the posts I read the sexual issue seems to be the big one that is mystifying some people. The problem with the logic as I see it is this.

    If it is wrong to roll around on the floor with girls in sport, because it is somehow sexual, then why is it not sexual for two boys to roll around on the floor together. If it is wrong for a boy to touch a girl in areas, why is it not wrong for a boy to touch a boy in those areas. How is it any different?

  33. Nathan March 6, 2009 at 11:25 am #

    “If it is wrong for a boy to touch a girl in areas, why is it not wrong for a boy to touch a boy in those areas. How is it any different?”

    Bryan, with that logic then why not allow all athletes to shower in the same locker room. Please!

    This is the slippery slope and I wonder if any who support girls and boys wrestling will answer my question of combat and foxholes. Use your logic to not support women in foxholes where you are allowing girls and boys to wrestle.

  34. William March 6, 2009 at 11:31 am #

    Bryan… do you see ANY difference between boys and girls? When I wrestle a buddy, it is to see who is stronger/more able. When I wrestly my wife… well, I rest my case.

  35. William March 6, 2009 at 11:32 am #

    (replace “wrestly” with “wrestle” in that last comment)

  36. Bryan March 6, 2009 at 12:23 pm #

    I am not saying there is no difference between boys and girls, i am just wondering why it is ok for boys to be wrestling boys, because if there is the possibility of arousal, then… My point is if your a serious wrestler arousal isn’t gonna come into play.

    Gay professional sports players aren’t aroused by showering with teammates of the same sex after the game. What I am trying to say is that context plays a big role in sexual arousal, and a competitive HS wrestling match probable is not one of those contexts!

    And in competitive HS wrestling you probably won’t face your wife, at least I hope not.

    I just don’t think the sexual argument is worth an once of salt.

    peace,

  37. Nathan March 6, 2009 at 12:26 pm #

    “Gay professional sports players aren’t aroused by showering with teammates of the same sex after the game.”

    Bryan: How do you know this to be true? I think you are presuming far too much

  38. Bryan March 6, 2009 at 12:30 pm #

    Well either that or at least the gay sport stars who have come out after their professional carriers were able to hide it extremely well?

  39. Nathan March 6, 2009 at 12:51 pm #

    Bryan: I think you are being somewhat naive, however it is your opinion.

    So, do you believe girls should be wrestling boys? You seem to only want to discuss the sexual argument. What would be your argument pro or con them? And what do you think about my foxhole issue? I believe that to be a sexual argument as well as a moral and ethical one?

    Piper is calling on men to have some chivalry.

  40. William March 6, 2009 at 1:44 pm #

    “My point is if your a serious wrestler arousal isn’t gonna come into play.”

    So I guess that if I am a serious showerer then I can shower with anyone I please?

    Nathan… I agree with you that this debate is more complex than just the sexual aspect. I just think that it is absurd to argue that the sexual aspect does not apply.

    For a young man to be allowed to wrestly a young woman (in the situation in question) is at best imprudent, at worst downright wrong.

  41. William March 6, 2009 at 1:45 pm #

    Arg! I keep typing “wrestly” instead of “wrestle.” Sorry folks. Not a great typist 😉

  42. Nathan March 6, 2009 at 2:24 pm #

    I agree with you William. I was attempting to get Bryan to speak to his pros or cons outside the realm of the sexual issue, since he was seemingly only attempting to discredit the sexual side. (Which, as you said, cannot be dismissed)

    I realize I am about to be viewed as “sexist” but why is it that boys are the only ones that have to “deal” with these issues. Most high schools do not have boy’s volleyball (majority of teams begin at the collegiate level), so what would happen if a bunch of boys wanted to play volleyball in high school? They would be told to get lost!

    Also, for all of you who think it is okay for girls to be going out for boys sports, what would you say about Junior AAU or Golden Gloves boxing? Are you cool with your daughters boxing boys? Are you down with your sons knocking out girls in the ring?

  43. Nathan D March 6, 2009 at 2:42 pm #

    Bryan: You must have ignored my post then. I actually know of a boy who was kicked off his team because he became sexually aroused while wrestling a girl. Do you think it was right for him to get kicked off?

    I have a feeling you have no problem with homosexuality. You do realize this is a conservative Christian blog (which are welcome to continue commenting on) but most of the people that read this blog DO find big problems with homosexuality.

    So, before you even ask the question: Yes, I think it’s right to remove a boy from a wrestling team who was sexually aroused by wrestling boys, but it’s wrong to remove him because he was aroused by a girl.

  44. Nathan D March 6, 2009 at 2:49 pm #

    Nathan: Hooters had to deal with the issue, though. It’s not sports related, but it has created a stir.

    Outside of that, you’re right. I think the reason is because our culture realizes it opens a pandora’s box. If boys started fighting for the “right” to join a girls team, any team with a boy on it who knows how to play that sport well will DOMINATE. The physical prowess will almost always side with the male.

    Too, bad our culture doesn’t understand the pandora’s box it has opened on the flip-side.

  45. beth March 6, 2009 at 3:40 pm #

    Unless a man is a policeman on COPS, why would it ever be appropriate for a man to seek to physically overpower a woman?
    Also, a woman might well be physically stronger than a man, but that does not mean she should seek to physically overpower him either.

  46. volfan007 March 6, 2009 at 4:17 pm #

    Weeeelllll, if we’re gonna let them wrestle each other, and who knows what else, because boys shouldnt be aroused when touching a girl…especially in the private parts…lol…then, why shouldnt they shower together? I mean, why waste all that money on two locker rooms…after all,, it’s just sports,and boys shouldnt be getting aroused during sports.

    lol.

    David

  47. Adam Omelianchuk March 6, 2009 at 4:56 pm #

    Hmmm… this is a tough one for me.

    I don’t think Piper is right to conflate wrestling with violence, and I am not sure I would agree to that the contest would be “sexually explicit” in some way.

    Even though I don’t know what it is, it still seems wrong. I think Piper is on to something about men not dominating women. Of course, that is what the whole contest is about. She believes she cannot be dominated!

    I’m not really sure what to think.

  48. James Brown March 6, 2009 at 8:22 pm #

    For 5 years I worked on psych wards as an orderly. Having to physically restrain a male was pretty straightforward. Restraining the females was much more problematic. You just didn’t really want to grab on to just any part of them that was available. We got hurt more wrestling the women because we were more restrained.

    Letting my daughter be a co-ed wrestler? Not in my lifetime.

    You don’t have to be a teenage boy to envision the sexual elements of wrestling a female.

  49. Carol March 6, 2009 at 8:39 pm #

    One has to wonder how long before a sexual harassment lawsuit comes about (from either side of the mat).

  50. Jeff March 6, 2009 at 9:53 pm #

    Someone (I think it was Ben in #5) suggested that for a boy to not wrestle this girl would demean the girls efforts. His question – Why deny the girl a chance to excel?

    Isn’t it demeaning to suggest that girls must wrestle boys in order to “excel”? What’s wrong with a girl being the best against other girls?

    A girl doesn’t have to do everything that a boy does (or can do) in order to prove her worth. To suggest otherwise assumes that girls are inherently “lesser” than boys.

  51. Horton Granada March 7, 2009 at 10:15 pm #

    My question is this:

    Do fathers of boys not like it when their fellow players slap them on the rear after a good play?

  52. Matt Svoboda March 8, 2009 at 12:59 am #

    Horton,

    Stupid question that terribly misses the point.

    Darius,

    I am sorry you lost to a girl in the 6th grade. You were in quite the dilemma.

  53. Matt Svoboda March 8, 2009 at 12:59 am #

    Jeff,

    Amazing point.

  54. Smitty March 9, 2009 at 2:47 pm #

    As a father of a teenaged boy, I am cursed with a very good memory of what it was like to be an adolescent guy. In a coed wrestling match, the pressure is ALL on the boy. If he wins, big deal, he pinned a girl. If she pins him, he will hear about it for the rest of his days. (Teammates are SO kind!)At a stage in life where the mere thought of the opposite sex can lead to a rather dramatic physical response, we’re placing a young man on a mat with a spandex clad young lady,to grapple with entwined limbs until the winner is able to physically control the loser, but Don’t Dare Think of Sex! To be quite honest, as an adult man, I could not wrestle an adult woman without being VERY aware of being in a sexually charged situation. How can we expect a kid to put this out of his mind?

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