Who is the prophet in this picture?

Openly gay US Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson was preaching in London about how sad it was that the Anglican Communion was tearing itself apart over the issue of homosexuality. As he was speaking, a congregant stood up and began shouting “heretic” and “repent.” Many others in the congregation followed the outburst with claps. Watch it here.

To be sure, some people will say that the outburst was just rude. But you tell me. Who is the prophet in this picture? Here are some lines from Bishop Robinson’s sermon:

“This discussion of homosexuality we are having in the Church is not so significant because of what it says about homosexuality, but of what it says about God.”

“When someone stands up and says homosexuality is an abomination, does that make you want to get to know God?”

“I think God wants us to be bold, I think God wants us to take risks, I don’t think God wants us to be afraid.”

“You know, whatever you think makes you unworthy, I don’t think God wants to hear it any more.”

“All you have to do is turn up and open up your heart.”

62 Responses to Who is the prophet in this picture?

  1. Mike Templin July 16, 2008 at 12:03 am #

    Im glad someone spoke the truth..repent!

  2. Kenneth Ross July 16, 2008 at 2:28 am #

    Just a wee comment from a UK perspective. The ‘claps’ that followed the man challenging Gene Robinson were slow hand claps. They were a criticism against the man who spoke out, not applause at his courage.

    My guess is just about everyone there approved of what Gene Robinson was saying, and the man who spoke out was, in that gathering, essentially a lone voice.

  3. Ferg July 16, 2008 at 8:00 am #

    You’re right Kenneth, and it’s only a matter of time before the anglican church fully allows homosexuals to minister in church.
    The sad result of a church with a spirit of religion hanging over it.

  4. Kevin J July 16, 2008 at 8:12 am #

    The fact that anyone can claim that homosexuality is not an abomination to God shows me how depraved unregenerate man really is.

  5. JB July 16, 2008 at 8:18 am #

    Two parts of the lone man’s body are composed of stone! May his tribe increase.

  6. volfan007 July 16, 2008 at 9:16 am #

    What’s really a shame is that no one walked out with this courageous, young man. I guess they all went along with the gay Bishop. That’s really sad.

    David

  7. Paul July 16, 2008 at 10:12 am #

    “The fact that anyone can claim that homosexuality is not an abomination to God shows me how depraved unregenerate man really is.”

    Yes, but in James, we clearly learn that all sins are abominations unto God. So, unless you are going to get on your soapbox and scream about liars, adulterers, theives, those who neglect the least of these, those who take God’s name in vein and everyone else that sins, your post rings hollow.

  8. brian July 16, 2008 at 10:21 am #

    Wow! Why doesn’t that happen more often? It’s interesting how the “bishop” just took it and they started singing. What, no friendly dialogue?

  9. Roy Garringer July 16, 2008 at 10:55 am #

    “Two parts of the lone man’s body are composed of stone!” JB, What does that mean?

  10. Mark Gibson July 16, 2008 at 11:24 am #

    Paul,

    I think there is a difference since no preacher is going to preach about those sins being okay.

  11. Lance July 16, 2008 at 11:27 am #

    What an interesting twist: A heterosexual activist disrupts a church service!

    Paul (#6): You are correct in that we all stand guilty before a holy God.

    The issue here, though, is what we do with our sin–repent of it or promote it?

    Robinson has chosen (b).

  12. Paul July 16, 2008 at 12:22 pm #

    Mark,

    I get that. However, Kevin said “ANYONE,” not “priests.”

    As much as I might be pro gay rights, I still don’t want them preaching in my church.

    Of course, I have to say this: why is it that every time I’m at an Anglican or Episcopalian church, I never see anyone preach out of the Bible? It’s seemingly always about church splits, or this problem or that problem. And it never, and I mean NEVER comes back to the Bible. And that explains an awful lot about why the Anglica/Episcopalian churches are having so many problems at the moment.

  13. Don Gale July 16, 2008 at 12:29 pm #

    The especially bizarre thing is that one priest (I assume) decided to have the church sing to drown the guy out…and everyone sang. I’d like to know more about the guy who spoke up.

  14. Wesley July 16, 2008 at 12:54 pm #

    To Ferg,

    No the problem is that we as a Church as not religious enough. Hopefully the Communion as an Institution will be able to bring the Church back in line. But this kind of thing happened before during the Arian heresy, we just need another Nicea at Lambeth. Pray for our Bishops!

  15. Ferg July 16, 2008 at 2:47 pm #

    Wesley, are you serious? Religion KILLS churches. What people need is the spirit of the Lord not just something to do on a Sunday to suposedly keep them away from the wrath of God. I really despise religion. I’ve seen the damage it’s done to the lives of so many people in my country. Jesus saves, NOT religion.

  16. Sean Post July 16, 2008 at 3:46 pm #

    Lance,

    You nailed it! The problem with Robinson is he is attempting to convince people who haved been saved from the penalty for their sin by the shed blood of Jesus, that sin (in this case the sin of homosexuality) really isn’t a problem.

    In his words, “You know, whatever you think makes you unworthy, I don’t think God wants to hear it anymore.” So, God doesn’t care about sin anymore, Mr Robinson? God isn’t concerned with holiness, obedience, or righteousness in 2008, Mr Robinson? If God is not concerned with these things then the crucifixion of His Son proves Him to be a warped and perverse being.

    But, this is not our God, Mr Robinson. Our God is the God who is perfectly holy, perfectly righteous, and one who will not let sin and evil go unpunished. The lost one will be punished for his sin in eternity. The saved one knows that his sin was punished at the cross of Christ. How dare anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ trample upon his shed blood by claiming sin is not a problem, or worse, that sin is not sin at all!

    May the overwhelming conviction of a holy God cause Mr Robinson, and all of his tribe, to bow down and submit to the one who bled and died to pay the penalty for sin.

  17. Truth Unites.. and Divides July 16, 2008 at 5:10 pm #

    Openly gay US Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson was preaching in London about how sad it was that the Anglican Communion was tearing itself apart over the issue of homosexuality.

    And the Church of England is tearing itself apart over the issue of ordaining women as bishops: “The Church of England looked set for a damaging split last night after its ruling body agreed to press ahead with the introduction of women bishops without any compromise measures for opponents of the controversial move.”

    From: Church of England set to split over women bishops

    Egalitarians and egalitarianism is divisive.

  18. Ferg July 16, 2008 at 6:07 pm #

    As are you TUAD, as are you.

  19. Truth Unites... and Divides July 16, 2008 at 6:22 pm #

    As are you Ferg, as are you.

  20. John July 16, 2008 at 7:25 pm #

    I guess TUAD couldn’t think of anything more intelligent to say, Ferg!

    We’ve had more than enough discourse regarding males/females and the church. Let’s try to stick to the topic at hand. You’re impossible to converse with on that topic anyways.

    Let it go.

  21. Ben Stevenson July 16, 2008 at 7:29 pm #

    Ferg: “Religion KILLS churches.”

    The Bible uses the word religion in both positive and negative ways.

    “But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.” — 1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV)

    “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” — James 1:27 (NIV)

    I assume you are not denouncing these things (care for parents, care for ophans and widows), so can you please describe what you mean by religion?

    (NB Although the NIV translated these two verses with the same word, different Greek words are used according to blueletterbible.org )

  22. Truth Unites... and Divides July 16, 2008 at 7:44 pm #

    Darius: “Okay, John, so you won’t retract your uncivil remarks and would rather heap more on us. Please spare us your condescending comments, the rest of us have had quite civil discussions at time, even between Paul and myself. You have proven your character by your words.

    Thanks again Darius. I owe you twice.

  23. John July 16, 2008 at 8:02 pm #

    Same immature tactics by TUAD. With the amount of time you spend on blogs, one would think that you would be better at defending yourself and making others look bad………

    Guess not

    Stick to your day job (which appears to be typing on blogs; if this is the case, then get a new day job).

  24. Truth Unites... and Divides July 16, 2008 at 8:19 pm #

    John: “one would think that you would be better at defending yourself and making others look bad………

    Don’t project yourself unto others.

  25. Lucas Knisely July 16, 2008 at 9:04 pm #

    Retract your claws, brothers.

    On topic… glad to see someone has the courage to stand up for God’s truth amongst those who wish to have their ears tickled by a false teacher.

  26. John July 16, 2008 at 9:17 pm #

    Of course TUAD, you don’t fit that description at all. The only thing you do is stand up for truth…right? 😉

  27. Wesley July 16, 2008 at 9:48 pm #

    I’m completely serious. And I think it matters here.

    Without religion, any set of beliefs in “a divine” is vapid spirituality. The comments that Bp. Robinson made are not the comments of a religious man, but of one who is only “spiritual”. He has a vague feeling for God as some type of nice focal point of love without thinking that God may actually disagree with him so as to make him feel bad about himself. Religion is the regulator of spirituality, the “liberal” side of the Communion has fallen into keeping the look of religion with the Liturgy and Sacraments and Daily Office, while removing the vital creedal component of religion that keeps spirituality from falling into indefinite nothingness, which ends up centered on humanity more then what pleases God. All beliefs are religious, it is impossible to separate Christianity from religion without making it so vague that eventually it has lost all uniqueness. It is the religious man that takes his faith seriously enough to not “just do” something on Sunday, but see Sunday as the primary time to come together as the Church to worship God (and take the sacraments). It is the religious man who is truly pious, and hence by definition has the Spirit of God, for the Sprit of God brings order, not chaos. But it is the lack of religion that defies order and the Church as a legitimate institution with real authority (and in this sense I would have some problems with the schismatic GAFCON as much as the heretical “liberals”). If religion has destroyed a church, then it was no religion at all, it was what happened when people lost religion and replaced it for a personal spirituality while attempting to “act” religious.

    This I believe is the case here with Bp. Robinson, the issue is not homosexuality, that is only the catalyst. The issue is the nature of Scripture, the role of the Church, the place for discipline and creedal boundaries all that define a religious system. It is his rejection (implicitly) of this that is causing the problems. Not issues of “does God exclude or include people”

  28. Truth Unites... and Divides July 17, 2008 at 12:35 am #

    Lucas Knisely: “…glad to see someone has the courage to stand up for God’s truth amongst those who wish to have their ears tickled by a false teacher.”

    Here’s some others who stood up for God’s truth amongst those who wish to have their ears tickled by a false teacher:

    Tommy Nelson: “Citing Wayne Grudem’s book, Nelson said that egalitarianism is the “new path to liberalism” because it effectively sets aside the authority of the Bible. He said that the egalitarian view must not be considered a viable evangelical option because it is a deadly “cancer” within the church. Pastor Nelson says that egalitarianism is “Satan’s new ploy to get into the church.”

    Russell Moore: “… because the pastor there (a man by the name of Tommy Nelson, who is a kind of a hero of mine for his boldness in the pulpit), this guy has no fear.”

    Denny Burk: “Dr. Moore is right. Pastor Tommy is fearless, and I am grateful to him for standing in the gap on the gender issue.”

    ——–

    John: “The only thing you do is stand up for truth…right?”

    Right! On the various blog posts that Denny has posted and that I remember commenting on:

    o Pro-life. Abortion is a horrible, terrible, tragic sin that kills unborn, innocent life. And has awful ripple effects and consequences for the individuals involved, and for society as a whole.

    o Pro Faithful, Biblical Sexuality. Same-sex behavior is a sin.

    o Christians should vote against pro-Abortionist Barack Obama.

    o Egalitarianism is a deadly cancer and Satan’s new ploy to get into and destroy the Church. Simply affirming Pastor Tommy Nelson along with Professors Denny Burk and Russell Moore. One for all and all for one.

    o Suggestions that the U.S. military is comparable to the 3rd Reich in Nazi Germany is an utterly grotesque, malevolent, and nauseatingly absurd suggestion.

  29. Ferg July 17, 2008 at 4:02 am #

    I see your points Ben and Wesley. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a country where “religion” is extremely negative; people in fear BECAUSE of sacrements and the like run by the Catholic Church.
    You do have to say that it is more about relationship than religion though. Jesus wasn’t about doing formalities, he was about us being real with HIM as the centre. Religion a lot of times has the things we do at the centre.

    “If religion has destroyed a church, then it was no religion at all”
    I don’t understand that comment. Catholicism has destroyed a lot of lives, as has the Church of Ireland BECAUSE of their religiousity. And where does religion stop? Islam is a religion, so is Satanism.

    TUAD, please stop disrespecting the good folk here by harping on about women in ministry. I don’t harp on about prediestination and the like all the time which is a topic I have certain convictions on. Humility is an honourable trait.

  30. Darius July 17, 2008 at 9:29 am #

    TUAD, honestly, ignore John. He’s a troll, and a vicious small little one at that. He merely exists on here to project his hate onto others. Just ignore him and discuss the issues with those who are intellectually honest and willing to debate, like Paul and Ferg.

  31. John July 17, 2008 at 10:30 am #

    Darius,

    Have you been thinking and brainstorming in a private room the last couple of days trying to figure out what to say?

    Seriously Darius, I don’t mind to converse and dialog with right-wing conservatives. I have done it many times in a civil manner in the past with various people (never on this site, of course). However, you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by your conversations with Paul and by your snarky little remarks to other non-conservatives on here that you are just about impossible to dialog with. You think America is the savior of the world, and you think everybody who doesn’t think like you is an idiot and a “liberal.” I only speak to you like you speak to everyone else. Nobody can dialog honestly nor intellectually with you because you just attack them and make their arguments out to be like their stupid and ignorant and like you know everything. Sorry dude, nobody wants to converse with somebody like that, get over it.

    By the way, name-calling? Come on bro, we’re older than 10…start acting like it.

    TUAD, stop deceiving yourself. You spend your whole day on blogs “standing up for truth,” which basically means acting like a jerk and being divisive to those who disagree with you. If you really want to stand up for truth, then do something with real people in the real world. Posting on blogs is hardly the way to “stand up for truth” and “expose people’s sins.”

    Deal with it

  32. MatthewS July 17, 2008 at 10:43 am #

    Friends of the DennyBurk community,

    I appreciate when Denny brings up political commentary here and supports it with facts. I also appreciate seeing how he defends various doctrines. Sometimes I agree with the core of what he says, sometimes I don’t. Either way, I am always grateful for his commitment of time and effort.

    I have appreciated the opportunity to engage in conversation here with people of various stripes. But I have begun to feel more and more that this community does not bring out the best in people. It does not bring out the best in me.

    Paul knew how to converse with people with differing backgrounds. His chat with philosophers at Mars Hill is the classic example. Many of them were interested and wanted to learn more. I have a long way to go but I would like to learn how to discuss important issues with people and help them to be interested in, helped by, and drawn toward truth (and THE Truth, Jesus himself).

    In a number of places in the NT, quarreling, anger, disrespect, impatience, dividing ourselves up from each other are signs of the flesh being at work. In contrast, the Spirit brings patience, gentleness, respect, humility, kindness.

    Some examples:

    1 Cor 12:20b I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.

    James 3:15 17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

    Col 3, Gal 5, 1 Tim 2 and 3 are a few examples of similar.

    Obviously, anyone can throw a stack of proof-texts out there. But I believe it is an NT truth that the Spirit brings the virtues listed in the passages. When these virtues are missing, or the vices are present, (regardless of whether it is pride, anger, gossip, moral sin, whatever) it is evidence of the flesh. Being doctrinally correct is not an effective guard against the fruit of the flesh.

    I have (compulsively?) checked the blog several times per day for at least the past year. I am weaning myself off of it (replacing it in part with ScriptoriumDaily). I will drop by from time to time to check out what Denny is saying but I think it will be better for me to quit engaging in the comments. I bid this community adieu and hope that we all will more and more keep in step with the Spirit.

    And good luck to all those who are students who will be resuming their studies in a few weeks. Study well!

  33. Darius July 17, 2008 at 10:45 am #

    “I have [debated] many times in a civil manner in the past with various people (never on this site, of course).”

    While that remains to be seen, I’m actually amazed that Denny doesn’t delete your vitriol, especially since you just admitted to being a troll and nothing more.

  34. John July 17, 2008 at 10:49 am #

    More name-calling…the true colors have come out even clearer than before.

  35. Mark Gibson July 17, 2008 at 10:51 am #

    John,

    I haven’t seen you add anything on this thread or other threads regarding the topic. Do you check this web site every five minutes to see if Darius or TUAD posted a comment? You are the definition of a troll.

  36. Truth Unites... and Divides July 17, 2008 at 10:57 am #

    Ferg: “TUAD, please stop disrespecting the good folk here by harping on about women in ministry.

    No disrespect intended. Quite the contrary actually. This is a very serious issue.

    You say that religiousity is killing the Church of Ireland. I don’t understand that comment. It seems to me that you have some vague, hazy, ill-defined notion of religion or religiousity, and as a consequence emit a vacuous platitude.

    I’m not sure how much of a parallel there is from the Church of Scotland to the Church of Ireland, but let’s look at what Pastor Ligon Duncan has to say about what has happened to the Church of Scotland (which has nothing to do with vague notions of “religiousity”):

    “You can chart every denomination that has placed women in leadership in the last 120 years and you can chart their numerical decline in the western world and their theological decline. When our evangelical egalitarian friends whine that we are using an illegitimate slippery slope argument, this is not some sort of wild-haired spin theory that we are coming up with. It is a fact.

    Just go look at the denominational statistics, look at the denominational histories of the last 120 years and you cannot find an exception to this trend. In the Church of Scotland in 1960 when they began hammering for women elders-the argument was “we don’t have enough elders in our churches, this will revitalize our churches to get women elders”-the Church of Scotland is on chart to cease to exist in 2034. Somewhere between 1964 and 1968 was when they brought in women elders and women ministers were not far following that.”

    It would be interesting to find out the church membership stats from when the Church of Ireland started ordaining women and compare them to the current membership stats.

    I think a statistically significant correlation could be established between women’s ordination in the Church of Ireland and it’s membership trends.

    But egalitarianism is just the manifestation of a deeper root issue. One that is more subtle and more malignant. And that is the willful disregard for the Perspicuity and the Authority of Divinely Inspired Scripture. And if you blatantly disregard biblical commandments for male headship in the home and in the church, then you’ll have the same reasoning applied for the ordination of gay bishops like Vicki Gene Robinson.

    TUAD, honestly, ignore John. He’s a troll, and a vicious small little one at that.

    I concur. Sorry for feeding the troll.

  37. John July 17, 2008 at 11:29 am #

    Mark and TUAD,

    Alas, more name-calling, thus bringing out your true colors like Darius. I may call somebody out for something in which they said, but I will never stoop as low as a 5th grader and call them names. I find it interesting that there is no holistic debating or honest dialog going on with any of you. Gee, I wonder why that is?

    Bottom line: Grow up

  38. Ferg July 17, 2008 at 12:31 pm #

    I appreciate you responding directly to me TUAD, I think that’s a first!
    You make good points, however I think quoting one pastor about the decline in people attending the church is not a very good argument to make. It’s like me quoting jerry walls or joseph dongell in trying to discuss how damaging a calvinistic view of God is.

    The Church of Ireland has actually grown over the last number of years. In our last census EVERY county had a growth of its church of ireland membership.
    But like I said, our country has been steeped in religion and one of the main reasons for it’s growth is that the church of ireland isn’t catholic and Irish people are ‘religious’ in that they want to go to church but as the Catholic church has lost it’s right to be trusted, people are choosing the church of ireland. this is out of religion, not out of a love of JESUS. People feel they need to go somewhere so they go to a good religious church. They may aswell go to the church of mormon if they don’t go to pursue their relationship with Jesus instead of obligation.

  39. Wesley July 17, 2008 at 1:01 pm #

    Hey Ferg,

    I would say Islam, ect. are not true religions and that is the core problem, not so much that religion is a problem.

    In the end, this is a bit off topic and both of us have some different foundations we are working from I believe. When I left the Baptist Church to become Anglican, I intentionally rejected some of the theological principles and ideals that make up some of what I see as important to your spirituality. I notice that a somewhat oppistie effect happned for you? You have intentianlly rejected elements of what you see as “religion”? Our backgrounds seem to have shaped us in conflicting ways that are beyond the subject of this blog post.

    Hence, I’m afraid that on this thread we will have to agree to disagree 🙂

  40. Ferg July 17, 2008 at 1:33 pm #

    I much appreciate the tone of your post Wesley, it’s refreshing!
    Just to note, I’m definitely not Baptist. If there was a Baptist church near me that had a theological stance that I agreed with (even maybe 80% of it!!) I would have no problem going to it, same for Church of Ireland or a local independant church. (I wouldn’t attend a Catholic church, ever). I’m actually currently looking for a new church due to differing reasons which I don’t think is fair to bring up here. If anyone knows of an egalitarian, open theist, spirit filled, community loving church in Dublin, Ireland – let me know!!!
    :o)

  41. Mark Gibson July 17, 2008 at 1:56 pm #

    John,

    From Wikipedia: An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

    How am I wrong in #32? What do any of your posts on this thread have to do with the topic?

  42. John July 17, 2008 at 2:30 pm #

    Mark,

    I know what a troll is, and it is name-calling like I said above, no matter which angle you view it from. Also, what do any of YOUR posts on this thread have to do with the topic (other than typing one sentence to Paul)? You’re guilty of what you’re claiming for me.

    In any case, why do you always feel the need to jump in when it is between me, Darius, and TUAD?

  43. Darius July 17, 2008 at 2:55 pm #

    Mark, like I told TUAD, just ignore him. He purposely tries to start fights and is oblivious to the nature of his own comments. Ignore him and he’ll go away, that’s the only way to deal with hate-filled commenters (other than Denny stepping in and deleting his comments *wink wink*).

    He is right about one thing, Mark and I have not added any significant comments to this thread that were on topic (except for Mark’s first comment). That is for an obvious reason (or two perhaps). One, because I thought Denny covered it well and none of the on-topic comments were particularly attention-getting (at least for me). Two, because our comments have been used to address the evil behavior in our midst. I have no problem with someone not commenting on topic if they ARE attempting to defend someone or call out another for poor taste.

    One last time, John, and then I exhort everyone to ignore you if you continue your arrogant ways: SATAN, GET BEHIND US!!! You are trying to pull brothers in Christ into the sewers of dialogue, and we will have none of it!

  44. John July 17, 2008 at 3:15 pm #

    LOL! Now that’s just funny 🙂

  45. Matt Svoboda July 17, 2008 at 3:26 pm #

    Ferg,

    Egalitarian, open theist, and spirit-filled? Could it be? I don’t think so. I bet you could find a spirit-filled church that held historic Christian views in Dublin though!

    Matt

  46. Ferg July 17, 2008 at 3:52 pm #

    Thanks Matt!!
    I should have said that I don’t expect people to respond to that bit of my post. I thought I’d add it in for amusement sake. (perhaps my humour is a bit dark!) I figured I should say that for fear of a discussion that could arise concerning those topics. Although we could try beat the other post about women in ministry to 2000 comments!!! :o)

  47. Scott July 17, 2008 at 4:20 pm #

    John,

    Hold your head up! Apparently it’s legitimate Christian practice to call someone a tool of Satan, a cancer to the church, and arrogant and then accuse them of name-calling. Makes no sense to me.

    TUAD, Darius, and others: I’ll take the church pastored by a woman who actually teaches Scripture and loves the congregation. You guys can have the male pastor who continually reminds his flock of his “rightful place.” Quite frankly I wonder if some on here have mistaken the greater purpose of the Christian faith. Apparently defending the grey areas of Scripture are far more important than defending the deity and work of Christ. I dare say that this rigid, dogmatic, and intolerable fundamentalism is far more insipid and dangerous to the health of the church than any “liberalism” found in egalitarian churches. TUAD continually quotes statistics about churches dying once women are granted pastoral positions. I look around and see churches dying all over the place because we’ve refused to engage the issues intelligently and have sacrificed the Spirit’s guidance for a blind and determined adherence to one hermeneutic.

  48. Ferg July 17, 2008 at 4:23 pm #

    Scott, I hope you don’t get nailed for that post. And I also hope that people can read it with humility.
    thanks for posting!

  49. John July 17, 2008 at 5:37 pm #

    Trust me Scott, their remarks hold no weight with me. They’ve proven themselves to be incapable of dialog, divisive, and unreliable in their past posts. In fact, oftentimes I just come on here to get a laugh to see what they’re saying that day.

  50. JNG July 17, 2008 at 7:06 pm #

    To MatthewS #29.

    Great post man. I feel the same. I haven’t posted much of anything lately and have been slowly not checking in nearly as often. You articulated my thoughts perfectly.

  51. Mark Gibson July 18, 2008 at 12:24 am #

    John,

    You’re following around TUAD and Darius just to make smart-alec posts. Your main purpose on the past few threads has been to cause trouble because of previous disagreements. I think everyone on this site has seen Paul and me get into VERY heated debates, but you don’t see us following each other around (thread to thread) trying to make each other look stupid. We voice our disagreements, sometimes get ticked at each other, then drop it. Why can’t you show yourself to be capable of dialog and do the same?

  52. Paul July 18, 2008 at 2:26 am #

    John,

    as the token, off the deep end, public radio employee and jazz musician, I am probably the most liberal guy here. (and the only one, as far as I know with a CD for sale…buy one)

    And, hopefully, when you read this from me, it will carry a little more weight than if it were to come from Darius or TUAD.

    So, here goes:

    I have yet to see you make one constructive comment to date. I have seen you insult people. I have seen you make largely unfunny asides. I have not, however, seen you add anything constructive to even one thread/post/conversation to date.

    And the problem is, there are precious few of us Christians who are liberals around these parts. And our voices need to be heard in the larger Christian community. And when someone like you dilutes the valid points that we make with constant e-diarrhea, you not only make yourself look bad, but you make the rest of us look bad with you.

    So, please, stick to the topics at hand, or don’t post. I am sure that there is a BBS somewhere that is devoted to fourth grade level shots and comebacks. It’s not this place.

    Here, there are spirited debates about deep Biblical issues. And politics presented from a completely backwards perspective. And the side conversations that present themselves throughout these posts are oftentimes fascinating. Please, allow them to continue being fascinating.

    They most certainly aren’t fascinating when people have to jump off topic to police you.

    You know, like this post.

  53. Darius July 18, 2008 at 8:44 am #

    Thanks Paul.

  54. John July 18, 2008 at 12:50 pm #

    Paul,

    Thanks for the words. I don’t know why I’m the only one you address, as Darius, TUAD, and Mark are all acting the same way, but I understand what you’re talking about. If I were to post some left-wing liberal comment and act as though those who disagree with it are not Christians and it is as plain as day, I would be getting the same remarks from these guys that I’m giving them. I agree that I should keep my mouth shut at times, but when people like Darius and TUAD post with such venom and harsh words, it is very difficult (as you know, since you’re not always the most civil on here). I have noticed Darius getting much better at staying civil over the past month or two (I basically just got into it with him because he deemed it necessary to defend TUAD), but TUAD is just about beyond hope, and it is tough for me to just let what he says go without any confrontation. I hope you can understand, and I’ll try my best from here on out. I have not posted here very much, but I have been reading for a while, and the attitudes that some continually have and the words they speak (like TUAD’s continual postings on egalitarianism being Satan’s ploy and a cancer), frankly just irritate me after a while. I don’t see hardly any of the other commenters confront him, so I figured I would. I speak the way I do to try and make him see how foolish he sounds and how it makes us feel, but I suppose that is possibly the wrong method.

    Thanks

  55. John July 18, 2008 at 1:01 pm #

    And by the way, I contributed much to the discussion on Dever vs. Hauerwas, so go look at it if you think all I do is follow TUAD and Darius around. So Mark, Darius, and Paul are all wrong that I have not made any constructive comments or discussed the topic at hand. If you’re going to try and call me out like I’m bad and you’re good, then try not to misrepresent me.

    Thanks

  56. Stephen Newell July 18, 2008 at 2:07 pm #

    This (see above two comments) is why I rarely comment on blogs. Certain individuals just can’t do anything other than blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility.

  57. John July 18, 2008 at 2:13 pm #

    Typical Pharisaical attitude…everybody else is bad and wrong and I am right so I won’t associate with them.

  58. John July 18, 2008 at 2:17 pm #

    And Stephen, just go back over the past week or so and look at all the conversations and tell me if I am the only one to be blamed…mmmkay…thanks.

    I never said I didn’t do anything wrong, as I believe I took Paul’s rebuke to heart. So maybe it’s best that you don’t comment on blogs, because you’re not informed of the situation.

  59. Truth Unites... and Divides July 18, 2008 at 2:59 pm #

    Dear Stephen Newell,

    I just took a quick peek at your blog. You’re a good servant of Christ. Pyromaniac, Puritan Reading Project, excellent blog roll, etc… all tell me that you’re solid theologically.

    God bless you and yours.

    Pax in Christ alone.

  60. Mark Gibson July 18, 2008 at 3:09 pm #

    John,

    You have made constructive arguments on previous threads, but your behavior over the past couple of threads has been exactly what I have accused you of. If you get ticked at someone on a thread, then just leave it there. Don’t follow them around trying to embarrass them.

  61. Truth Unites... and Divides July 18, 2008 at 3:48 pm #

    Ferg: “Catholicism has destroyed a lot of lives, as has the Church of Ireland BECAUSE of their religiousity.

    I’m not going to touch the assertion that the Roman Catholic Church has destroyed a lot of lives, whether it be in Ireland or elsewhere.

    And I still don’t understand what you mean by “religiousity”.

    But I will respond that there are people who would argue that both the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the Anglican Province in Ireland called the Church of Ireland is being destroyed by Liberalism and by extension, the flock therein is being destroyed by the clergy embracing theological liberalism.

    (1) Irish Catholic: “This left the Church Militant in Ireland with neither the weapons, armor or morale to withstand the extended Tet Offensive launched by the secular left whose march through the institutions – media, political parties, courts, local and governmental bureaucracies, schools and universities – is now complete. Outflanked, fifth-columned, sniped at and then defeated in one pitched battle after the other, the Church, tactically inept and strategically bereft, retreated in confused rout to sanctuary, presbytery and episcopal palace. Now and then an eminent emissary emerges with yet another white flag masquerading as a brave banner of defiance to signal that the capitulation is complete.”

    From: Irish Catholic Church Disappears Down Political Correctness Boghole

    (2) Church of Ireland (Anglican): “Homosexuality is “natural” for homosexuals and must be accepted by the Church, the Anglican Primate of Ireland said this week.”

    From: Archbishop Alan Harper of the Armagh Anglican diocese

    P.S. I also read somewhere that the growth in the Church of Ireland is primarily the result of Anglican immigrants moving into Northern Ireland.

    I’m sorry Ferg, you’re not going to like this, but I will say it again: Secular and theological liberalism, such as egalitarianism and women’s ordination is spiritually and ecclesiastically destructive.

  62. Don July 28, 2008 at 5:23 pm #

    Egalitarianism and women’s ordination is not necessarily theological liberalism. Perhaps is liberalism anything goes, but one can be egalitarian and support women’s ordination and not be theologically liberal.

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