Rudy Giuliani: A Disaster Waiting to Happen

Hadley Arkes argues in First Things something similar to what I have been arguing on this blog. The nomination of Rudy Giuliani would effectively give us two pro-choice parties. If Rudy is elected, pro-lifers will be pushed to the political margins, and there will be no voice for the unborn in mainstream electoral politics. Here are the relevant lines:

“The nomination and election of Rudy Giuliani would mark the end of the Republican party as the pro-life party in our politics. And that would be the case regardless of whether pro-lifers respond to his nomination by refusing to vote for Giuliani, forming a third party, or folding themselves into a coalition that succeeds in electing Giuliani. . .

“If a Republican party, reconstituted in this way, manages to win, the Republican establishment will readily draw the lesson that they can win convincingly without pro-lifers and their bundle of causes: the destruction of embryos in research, assisted suicide, the resistance to same-sex marriage. Indeed, a Republican party shorn of those people and their baggage may seem to offer a stronger, more durable majority than the party that eked out victories by narrow margins in 2000 and 2004. . .

“It is conceivable, then, that from the standpoint of the pro-lifers it might be better to lose to Hillary Clinton than to win with Rudy Giuliani. . . . The Republicans might be diminished, but they would be essentially intact as a pro-life party; and, when the electoral winds shift again, they have a chance of coming back with their character intact. . .”

(HT: Justin Taylor)

12 Responses to Rudy Giuliani: A Disaster Waiting to Happen

  1. Larry Thompson November 20, 2007 at 11:19 pm #

    Absolutely correct and thanks for saying it. It is inconceivable that pro-life conservatives could consider Giuliani. It would be the end of decades of work.

  2. Alex Chediak November 21, 2007 at 4:12 am #

    Denny,

    I totally agree. Unfortunately, I think we may be seeing the fragmentation of the pro-life support between Romney, Huckabee, and (inconceivably) Thompson. Even the Sen. Brownback endorsement of McCain strikes me as odd.

    I saw a piece from Dick Morris a while ago on how all this serves Giuliani. The latest Rasmussen numbers show Giuliani ten points ahead of Thompson among likely Republican primary voters. And Thompson, Romney, Huckabee, and McCain, are all within 3% of each other — essentially, a statistical dead heat. Now if one of the others would drop out and throw his support to Huckabee…. 🙂

  3. Paul November 21, 2007 at 8:40 pm #

    the problem here, I think (and I know, nobody was asking…), is that THIS is the result of the Republican party trying to be too many things to too many people. You can’t have a party based on less government that also wants to be the world’s police force. You can’t have a party that is supposed to be the “moral party” and also have it be the “rich people” party.

    So, what happens? You have a candidate (giuliani) who wants to be the “save us from the terrorists” candidate, but he fails on the social conservative front. You have a social conservative candidate who is liberal on fiscal issues (Huckabee), and the only person running who is a staunchly classic conservative is loved more by the left than by the right (Ron Paul). Of course, then, you also get someone like Mitt Romney, who is essentially the Hilary Clinton of the right (trying to be all things to all people), and that doesn’t work either.

    The only saving us all from either Obama or Clinton is the fact that no matter what anyone says, this is still an amazingly racist and sexist country.

    Of course, the choices on your side of the fence aren’t any better either. I think I’m gonna move to Spain.

  4. Mark Gibson November 25, 2007 at 3:34 am #

    Paul,

    How is the Republican party the “rich people” party? Also, what does wealth have to do with morality?

    When are all you liberals finally going to follow through with your threats to leave the country? Y’all were suppose to leave after the 2000 and 2004 elections.

  5. Paul November 26, 2007 at 6:41 pm #

    Mark,

    funny, the one time I DON’T use inflammatory language, someone gets all upset…

    anyway, going backwards:

    personally, I never made the threat before. But seeing as there is a definitive lack of interest in culture and the arts here (Brittany Spears and Lindsay Lohan DON’T count), and there still seems to at least be some interest in art and culture in Europe, it might make sense simply for self-preservation. At least until someone in America realizes that loud cars that aren’t even commercially available turning left on a track for hours on end isn’t a sport, and that a couple of “angst ridden” guys with dye jobs jumping up and down on stage doesn’t constitute music.

    Anyway, given the state of our culture today, if the best we can come up with is a horrible mayor and the wife of a great president as presidential candidates, it’s time to move.

    As for your first point, I’ll go directly to the source here: Jesus himself said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to go to heaven. And while both parties suffer from tons of corruption, it’s the rich guys party that’s been awful and corrupt and rich for quite some time now. Rove was right that someone needed to “tap into” the evangelical vote. Sadly, it’s the party that wants to spend and spend while collecting no revenue that did so. Sadly, it’s the party that cozies up next to the oil and tobacco industries that did so. Sadly, it’s the party that doesn’t care about the lives of its citizens that decided to become the pro-life party (even golden boy Mike Huckabee agreed that Republicans are only pro-life in the gestational period).

    Politics indeed makes for strange bedfellows. Few stranger than the crowd gathered under the tent of the GOP.

  6. Mark Gibson November 27, 2007 at 4:25 pm #

    Paul,

    Europe is worthless.

    Hillary Clinton is not the wife of a great president. I can’t think of a single thing he accomplished except for embarrassment.

    Just because you state that the Republican party is the “rich guys” party doesn’t make it so. You can’t back it up.

    Republicans do spend too much, the Democrats are still worse. All of their spending bills or budgets are billions more than the Republican proposals. No tax revenues is another baseless charge of yours since tax revenues are at record highs (adjusted for inflation).

    If Republicans are cozied up to the oil and tobacco industries, then Democrats are cozied up to any manufacturing industry. The unions (run by liberal Democrats) do nothing but cost their members their jobs. They don’t understand that corporations are in the business of making money, not providing jobs.

    Republicans do care about the citizens of this country. That is why we reject the failed socialized healthcare sysyems of other countries. It’s amazing how compassionate Democrats/liberals are with other people’s money.

  7. Paul November 27, 2007 at 5:53 pm #

    Mark,

    Culturally speaking, you couldn’t be more wrong. Kids actually learn about their culture in the schools in Europe, as opposed to music and art classes being the first to go in our completely backwards school systems. And when was the last time you took your kids to see an orchestra or a jazz concert? Yeah, exactly. Why are kids less literate these days? Because there’s nothing worth writing about. I’ve noted before that there’s a definite correlation between the portions of the globe that are big consumers of jazz and classical music and the fact that THOSE portions of the world are giving us the scientists and mathematicians of tomorrow.

    Here, we think that NASCAR is a viable sport and that The Dave Matthews Band plays sophisticated music. For someone that plays music for a living, this is a HUGE consideration.

    Or, in other words, when I’m playing in clubs, who is buying my CD’s? Is it Southern Baptists, or is it the European (and Japanese) tourists that filter through and buy a copy for themselves and copies for all of their buddies back home? And even though my name clicks right through to a page where you can pick up my disc, has anyone here bought one? Nope. Christians won’t even support each other in America unless your name is Rick Warren. Europe is worthless? Not to me, Jack.

    Clinton wasn’t a great president? If a president can be judged by what happened in the country on his watch, then Clinton was a FAR sight better than Bush. Under Clinton, the FEMA director actually knew a thing or two about disaster relief. Under Bush, the FEMA director was fired from a job petting horses. Sure, Bush is a Christian. So was Jimmy Carter.

    Republicans aren’t the rich guy party? I’ll let Dubya handle this one himself…

    “This is an impressive crowd. The haves and the have mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base.”

    You’re right, both parties do spend too much. But it’s not the threat of socialized medicine that’s the culprit. It’s things like the marriage education initiative ($1.5 BILLION!) or the helium reclamation project ($7-8 BILLION!) and only God knows how much on the DEA, the ATF and Homeland Security, just to name a few overly bureaucratic snafus. Not to mention a costly and completely pointless war in Iraq.

    Insofar as tax revenues go, it’d be nice if we didn’t waste away the record high taxes that the government is collecting playing world bully/policeman. Those record high tax revenues need to be taking care of Americans, not Iraqis. Sorry.

    I won’t get into the problems and travails of the union situation in this country here because it is not a black and/or white issue. It is absolutely a gray issue, and I am hardly in a position to speak to it.

    As to your last point, I don’t have the time or energy to write out every thought that I’m thinking to the contrary. Suffice it to say that for every single payer healthcare system that you name (please call it by its proper term), I can name a Katrina and a repeal of student loan subsidies. If Republicans actually cared about the middle and lower classes, they have a strange way of showing it.

  8. Mark Gibson November 29, 2007 at 12:46 pm #

    Paul,

    I wouldn’t give too much praise to the school systems in Europe. Look back at the news coming out of France. Their young people aren’t very bright.

    I’m 25 years old and single, so I don’t have any kids to take to see an orchestra or jazz concert. I did listen to your music on your link. Y’all are very talented; I’m just not a fan of jazz. I prefer Texas country or classic rock.

    There, they think that soccer is an entertaining sport. They kick a ball all over the field, never at the goal, and they cry every time they fall down. NASCAR isn’t a sport, it’s just racing. At least the drivers don’t cry like little girls after a crash at 150 mph. They just climb out of the car and look to fight the other driver.

    Why should I buy your music just because you are a fellow Christian? Why should I purchase any good or service because the seller is a Christian?

    Clinton wasn’t a great president. He gave us weak national security and a weak economy. He passed on opportunities to kill or imprison Osama bin Laden. The burst of the dot-com bubble sent the economy into recession. Bush’s economy grew at a 4.9% (3rd quarter 2007) while the housing market plummeted and oil prices skyrocketed. The unemployment rate is on average lower under Bush. We haven’t had a terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11. Saddam Hussein is dead and Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave. Katrina was a mess because of Louisiana, not FEMA. Plus, FEMA couldn’t move into the disaster area until after the hurricane passed. Katrina is just a cheap shot by people with Bush Derangement Syndrome.

    Republicans aren’t the rich guy party. From the Washington Times via Rush Limbaugh’s web site http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/fat_cats_washington_times.guest.html.

    The threat of socialized medicine is a big culprit when it comes to excessive spending. Two trillion dollars over 10 years is a lot. You’re right about the other projects, they are a waste of money. Iraq might be costly but not pointless. Killing terrorists is never pointless.

    America is not a world bully. We just take out the bullies that threaten us.

    Do you actually believe that Democrats care about the middle and lower classes? Socialized healthcare sure isn’t going to help them. It hasn’t worked anywhere else in the world. Like I said earlier, it’s easy to be compassionate with other people’s money.

  9. Paul November 29, 2007 at 2:19 pm #

    Mark,

    I wouldn’t be so quick to make your remark about the French. Remember that the kids rioting in France right now are Algerians (Hey! I’M part Algerian…this makes me look really good…) and not Frenchies. The North Africans in France have always gotten the short end of the stick, but we can agree that this is NOT the way to make it better.

    Thanks for the compliment. We put a lot of hard work into that CD. Our next one will have our versions of Folsom Prison Blues (Johnny Cash close enough for ya?) and Dark Star (do the Grateful Dead count as classic rock?).

    But, you do reiterate my point: Americans are so closed off to their own culture that they don’t even appreciate the fact that Jazz is the only truly American art form. And why? Because ninnies in the school system have no time or budget for serious arts education. And kids that aren’t exposed to the fine arts will also find themselves lagging in many other areas. I don’t care if my kids don’t like jazz or classical music, or classic literature for that matter, but I guarantee you that they’ll know it backwards and forwards. And when they do, it’ll enrich the whole of their lives.

    As for soccer, maybe I grew up around too many mexicans, but soccer IS entertaining. Driving around on a track and turning left for three hours on the other hand, well…

    Why should you support your fellow Christians? See, this is the major difference between us, Mark: I believe that we ARE our brothers’ keepers. I DO believe that it really does take a village to raise a child, and I do believe in the idea of community. As much as I disagree with about 85% of what Denny says, I’ll still buy his book at some point, just to give back a little bit for all of the written trash I throw his way on a daily basis. It’s the same reason that I usually buy my buddies CD’s, even when they put out death metal projects. I might never listen to it, but I’m gonna support my fellow musicians whenever and wherever I can. In the end, you support your own, and everybody comes out ahead. But that’s me. Your mileage may vary.

    Clinton had spots on his record, but every president has. Even Ronald Reagan! The dot com bust was bound to happen, and that was probably Greenspan’s fault for not putting the brakes on the economy. Of course, it wasn’t helped by the fact that Bush doesn’t even know how many internets we have (okay, that was simply a shot, but I couldn’t pass it up).

    Insofar as Katrina goes, yes, there was blame to go around, but thousands that died could have been merely hundreds if FEMA had acted swiftly and as soon as the storm passed.

    The unemployement rate doesn’t include the “chronically unemployed,” which have skyrocketed under Bush.

    single payer health care will indeed cost more, to be sure, but also realize the burden that would be taken off of businesses to provide health care as a benefit would be HUGE. How much more could GM, Ford and Chrysler put into R&D if they didn’t have to pay for the health insurance of its workers? Maybe then they could build cars that are good enough to justify buying American again. (side note on that…bought a used Blazer in June with 57K miles on it. I’m at 65K now, and I’ve already replaced the trans, the fuel pump, the fuel injectors, the wheel bearings, the alternator, the blower motor and the rear wiper assembly…I won’t be making THAT mistake again any time soon!)

    Also, let’s remember, Al Quada in Iraq and the shiite militias both started up in Iraq AFTER we went in there. Where else can we invade so we can create more terror?

    And if America’s not a world bully, I suggest you read up on the damage we did in South America in the 50’s-80’s, not to mention how badly we botched Vietnam.

    I believe that neither party really cares about the lower and middle classes. However, I’d rather have the left making flacid attempt to help us out than to have the right make no attempts at all.

    And that other people’s money comment is a farce. I know where MY money would be going. And I’d rather pay higher taxes and see health care be a reality for those that need it and education be an attainable goal. Our philosophies are obviously different on this point.

  10. David November 29, 2007 at 4:36 pm #

    As for NASCAR and soccer being debated as sports, I’ll leave to the other two to argue. As for music as a career, I can speak but won’t b/c I’m no longer in music. If you can make a living in that industry in the environments you play in, remain a die-hard, committed Christian and it not affect your walk, then more power to you…we need a Christian influence in your industry as I’m sure you’re well aware.

    As for what the government should be engaging in, do this…quote the part in the Constitution where it gives the government the Power to engage in the retirement planning industry, the insurance industry, the housing industry, the education industry or “women’s health services” industry (abortion) and I’ll quote the 10th Amendment for you every time.

    Here’s one better for you…who cares who the next President is or from which party he (or she, for the first time this term must be considered!) comes from? I say give Congress back to the Republicans under the stipulation that they enact Article 3 Powers which give to Congress the Power to “ordain and establish” the “inferior Courts” of the Judiciary, and the Power to “except” and “regulate” the jurisdiction of the “supreme Court” (Constitution’s capitalization!), and rip issues like abortion out of the hands of the Judiciary and return them to the States where they belong.

    See, I can talk Constitution? Can you guys? I don’t personally care what either of you think about Europe, soccer or NASCAR, and your assertions about Bill Clinton’s Presidency, and Bush’s for that matter, quite frankly, are both pretty pathetic. Tell me about the Constitution…because THAT is what this country is supposed to operate according to…not your rantings.

  11. David November 29, 2007 at 4:45 pm #

    Paul, look up ‘limited Constitution’ sometime. Look up the part about the 10th Amendment…you know, the Bill of Rights? Look up the part about the Amendment process enumerated in the Constitution itself.

    Then tell me exactly where the Federal Government gets the Power to enact legislation to set up, tax, and pay for your programs in healthcare and education.

    These are not Powers of the Federal Government. If you want them to be you must amend…the…Constitution. Look up the history of alcohol regulation as a case study.

    First, alcohol was not regulated by the Feds. Then came the 18th Amendment and it was…tremendous failure. So they amended it again with the 21st which repealed (wisely) the 18th…but it left this little stipulation that “Congress and the States” have the Power to regulate the production, shipping, sales, enforcement, etc of alcohol.

    Point: The Feds didn’t just pass a Statute (like the Social Security Act) setting up the Volstead Act…it was an Amendment. Social Security, Education, and S-CHIP are Statutory Laws, that quite frankly, are unconstitutional. And so was Hillary 1.0 and so will be Hillary 2.0. Look it up.

  12. Mark Gibson November 29, 2007 at 5:41 pm #

    Paul,

    My remark about the French is more towards the ones that are my age. The 25% unemployment rate has made them pretty upset. The problem is that they want guaranteed employment. The French government won’t allow an employer to fire anyone based on job performance or to cut their workforce if needed. I guess my point is that it is more important to teach some subjects such as economics over the arts. I guess we just have a difference of opinion.

    I would definitely be interested in purchasing your next CD. Folsom Prison Blues is my favorite Johnny Cash song. Too bad Nashville doesn’t have any more singers/songwriters like him. Now they are all boy band rejects. That is why I stick with Texas country.

    I took an art history class in high school and college. I just found it boring. My interest was always math and history. It’s always cool to see a famous painting or something; I just don’t have any deep thoughts about it.

    I’ll admit that soccer is fun to play, but very boring to watch. I watch soccer once every four years when the United States is in the World Cup. NASCAR is just as boring, but I’m not from the southeast.

    I think you are taking one of my previous statements out of context or I did not do a good job of phrasing. There is no reason for me to buy a product or service from a fellow Christian unless I am going to utilize it. If it is someone’s ministry or a friend that needs help, then I have no problem giving what I can. But to buy a product that I do not intend to use is not wise. When your new CD is released, I’ll probably purchase it because what you’ve told me about it has gained my interest. It is fine if you want to purchase your buddies’ CD’s, but as an accountant it would be dumb for me to pay another accountant to do my taxes.

    The internets comment is absolutely hilarious. I remember watching TV when he said that.

    If you have proof of the “chronically unemployed” skyrocketing under Bush, then I would be interested in seeing the numbers.

    The burden that would be taken off of businesses to provide health care as a benefit would be replaced by higher taxes. They already spend billions a year on R&D. I believe that American cars on average have a $1,500 mark-up because of the unions. That is the reason our cars aren’t as competitive in the market place.

    I have no comment on South America since I know nothing about it. I’ll have to read up about it.

    Vietnam was botched because we fought a war of attrition instead of setting objectives. We still defeated them in the attrition war. We killed over a million of those little Commies. Their advantage was that they didn’t have their own countrymen working against them. South Vietnam was still free when we left. The Democrats in Congress stabbed them in the back. It was a huge political loss, not a military loss.

    We have made some of the same mistakes in Iraq. That is a legitimate criticism of Bush. When you send our military to war, you unleash them. Let them destroy city after city like we did during World War II. That is how you keep our guys safe. I think that it is irresponsible to send them out on patrols where the enemy can easily ambush them. That is what has made this war last longer than it should. Our politicians don’t allow our guys to fight to win.

    Bush said that we would fight a war against all terrorists, not just Al Qaeda.

    The best way either party can help us out is to quit making bigger government. Socialized healthcare is nothing but an attempt to take more control. It makes the citizens dependent on the government. I believe that things should work. Socialized healthcare has never worked.

    The owners of my company have become pretty wealthy guys. They started this company seven years ago and we are going to come close to $20 million in revenue this year. There are approximately 160 people on our payroll. Why should they have to pay higher taxes to take care of others? They already employ people at good salaries with insurance and 401k. The problem is our government’s willingness to punish the productive. They use class warfare to get the votes from have-nots. Rich people already do enough for me, they shouldn’t have to pay for my healthcare.

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