He definitely got all the brains in the family! Moore said 150 years from now Jim’s name will be among the top of Southern faculty.

Conversely, 150 years from now the only response to my name will be, “who?”

I thought that was your position but wanted to be sure. It is really helpful when others get it.

Denny had a real struggle whether or not to moderate me out for a long time, so I have to give him credit for allowing me to participate at all.

My main point here is not just how women suffer under the “leadership” of men, but how much it hurts to find out that the articles and arguments used against women are based on constructed evidence. Those who write against women are so intent on their purpose that they do not allow themselves to be challenged by the facts.

Darius,

Are you aware that the word hupotasso can be used in Greek without any sense of submitting to an authority. You leave out Eph. 5:21, you write as if the word submit were actually in Eph. 5:22, as if men only sacrifice, and women only submit.

The daily life of a mother is that she sacrifices, sacrifice is mutual. Submission too ought to be mutual.

Mutual submission is required by Eph. 5:21 and I notice that you don’t have that verse in your quoted scripture.

I said, “I don’t see any way around it” in regards to the complementarian position that many espouse (which I certainly DO NOT). I was not stating my personal beliefs. I certainly don’t believe there is a hierarchy in the marriage…and if you asked my wife and spent some time with us, you would find out pretty quickly that if there is a hierarchy, she is the one at the top!!

I think it’s a shame how women have been treated throughout history and certainly rejoice in the reversal of that trend. I have women teachers at my seminary and I gladly sit at their feet and listen to them any day of the week. Jesus even speaking to women (and Samaritan women at that) did much to redeem their dignity and value as human beings. I always make it a point to involve women any time I am in a teaching or leadership position mainly because my circles have been so ingrained with letting males do EVERYTHING. So I always ask women to pray, ask their opinions, etc. I consider it a tragedy for them to be “good little submissive wives” and never speak up and let their husbands tell them what to do and never have a voice.

And precisely because of the view my former church taught on women, there were many women who were severely depressed, abused, etc. And whenever they were in a leadership position (teaching elementary schoolers, VBS, etc of course!) they went ballistic and were raging “B” words.

Trust me Sue, we’re on the same page here. I think it’s somewhat tragic that men like Denny, Piper, Burer, et al react so much against the egalitarian position that they somewhat revert to borderline oppression again. In any case, none of them are consistent with their hermeneutic or they would never allow women to say one single word in church, and they would believe in inclusivism for women who give birth to kids!

I understand your emotion and consider it most welcome. Jesus’ teaching was driven by emotion at the injustices of his day, as ours should be too. Thank you for speaking in behalf of all women Sue, I consider you an honorable and zealous follower of Christ and seeker of truth.

You have no idea. My personal story is a great tragedy. Male entitlement is one of the great contributors to coercive abuse in marriage. Any preacher who preaches female submission in a sermon, ought to offer women the choice of entering a shelter rather than returning home from church that day. There should be a special door and armed guards allowing those who need it to escape.

I have no desire to live as anything other than female, but subordination of women is in to my mind as bad as any other form of vicious and violent enslavement. I wait for the day when the vow of obedience for wives will be outlawed.

Why on earth do you see no way around hierarchy? How on earth does hierarchy in marriage relate to passages like “love your neighbour as yourself?” Can a man not treat a wife as well as a neighbour? Can a man not ever treat a woman as he wishes to be treated himself? Is there no common humanity?

I regret that the level of emotion which must always block out my actual scholarship. But does one take a black man who was beaten and pleads for the end of slavery and berate him for the emotion in his voice? Just because some slaves were well fed and taught to read, does that justify slavery. Were no former slaves ever allowed to have their voice heard?

No point in telling me a wife is not a slave. A wife who is bound to obedience is a slave.

Sue, just be glad you’re not married to a hardcore complementarian! I’ve seen this position abused so much in my former southern Baptist church it wasn’t even funny. It didn’t result in “leadership,” it resulted in downright oppression and abuse!

Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it. I wonder would you think that complementarity has anything to do with hierarchy?

God bless you Sue. Keep speaking up for the oppression of women. You are doing a noble thing sister and I commend you for it!

I understand trajectory hermeneutics. I do not understand people that use non existent evidence to lower the status of women. That I do not understand. How can people actually do that to women?

How can others stand by while some people do this to women?