More on Rudy Giuliani

This is just a follow-up to my post from earlier this week, “Why I Will Not Vote for Rudy Giuliani.” Maggie Gallagher writes a scathing critique of the Giuliani candidacy that you won’t want to miss. It’s titled “Rudy’s Mythical ‘Electability’,” and here’s the relevant excerpt:

“Sean Hannity spends hours every afternoon criticizing those in the GOP coalition (such as Dr. James Dobson) who won’t vote for Rudy. Sure, Giuliani may be wrong on gay marriage and abortion, but he’ll be much better than Hillary because he’ll appoint “strict constructionist” Supreme Court justices, right?

“More self-delusion. Bucking the tide by appointing judges with sufficient intellectual integrity to overturn Roe v. Wade is very hard. Ronald Reagan wanted to do it, and he got it right only once. Even President Bush put appointing his good friend Harriet Miers ahead of appointing a Sam Alito. Only when the base went ballistic did Bush back down, and only because he really is a conservative who cares about what conservatives think.

“Rudy? Here’s a safe bet: He’ll appoint a loyalist crony to the bench. When the base erupts, he’ll tell the base where it can stick its objections. That’s Rudy.

“When he’s on your side, you admire how fearlessly he’ll defend your views. When he’s not on your side, he ruthlessly steamrolls over you. On abortion? Don’t kid yourself: Rudy is not on our side. . .

“A little political realism, please. If you think a candidate who breaks up the Republican Party is the best man to lead the nation, vote for Rudy. But don’t imagine it’s going to be easy to elect him.”

15 Responses to More on Rudy Giuliani

  1. rf2r2 October 13, 2007 at 5:40 am #

    Denny,

    Why is gay marriage an important agenda for religious conservatives? I can understand saying that homosexuality is sinful, I believe the scriptures teach as much, but I don’t understand what is so vitaly important about our worldly government restricting the liberties of homosexuals. Conservatives are not asking those engaged in adulterous pre-/extra-marital sex (morally equivalent to homosexual sex), which is also called sin in scripture, to have imposed on them a simalar ban or stigma. I don’t understand why gay marriage is a hill on which many, like Dr. Dobson, are willing to die. I hope you can shed some light on the issue for me.

    -Brandon

  2. Jon October 13, 2007 at 6:02 pm #

    Hey Brandon:

    I’m sure that Denny could answer your questions better than I, but I’d like to say a few things about it anyway. Many true religious conservatives are taking a stand against all types of sexual immorality, and on the basis that these acts and even thoughts are called sinful in Scripture. As to a tendency to make much of some sins and less of others, chalk some of that up to human tendencies. But what we also need to realize is that the government on any level is not debating (for the most part) on whether or not extra-marital relationships are wrong. The fact that some in government are trying to make it legally acceptable to practice homosexuality rightly places this issue on the firing line ahead of these other abominations. Let’s remember that the apostle Paul placed homosexuality in the list of sins that were most detestable to the Lord. I, for one, don’t want my children to be coerced into thinking homosexuality is an acceptable practice because the government says it’s legal. Not that they would, with proper training, but why should I have to tell them to disagree with the government if I don’t have to? It is a big deal.

    -Jon

  3. Yvette October 13, 2007 at 6:54 pm #

    Jon,

    Are you under the impression that practicing homosexuality is illegal?

    As far as Paul’s view of homosexuality is concerned, in the same context during his statements in Romans he also talks about the deplorable practices of gossip and slander. These deserve death.

    Leviticus does say homosexuality is detestable. But Proverbs says haughty eyes,a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers are also detestable. So we can’t simply base our views on homosexuality as being detestable since we don’t do it for others that are also called detestable. Would we ever consider denying someone membership for being arrogant or a liar?

    I don’t think it is fair just to chalk up to human tendency elevation of certain sins. I think it is more than human tendency; I think it is about wanting to look at others sins and ignore our own. If we were so concerned about family values, then we would be taking more seriously the divorce rate in the church.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your concern for future generations.

  4. rf2r2 October 14, 2007 at 12:58 pm #

    Jon,

    There are many things the government advocates and legislates that are contrary to how the Kingdom of God is supposed to function… but that’s the point. I don’t believe in turning the USA, one issue at a time, into the Kingdom of God. I believe in a free and fair society where my desire to serve people and share my beliefs is not obstructed. In America it would restrict the liberties of gays to say they cannot be united or married in the eyes of the government – I like my liberties and I hope they are never so endangered as those of homosexuals. God forbid that the government had refused to recognize my marriage to my wife because we had fooled around before we got married.

  5. Jon October 14, 2007 at 10:41 pm #

    Yvette,

    Thank you for your comments. I appreciate any comments that help me think through my own doctrinal positions. As to your question about me being under the impression that homosexuality is illegal, the answer is a decisive no. I am fully aware that it is not illegal, but I am also fully persuaded that it should be. And as to your comment about “turning the USA into the Kingdom of God” Brandon, I am also fully aware that the world’s system is bent on evil, and that it is not my (or any group of believers) job to change that. It is my responsibility to present Christ to people, one person at a time. However, that does not mean that I am to “lay down and die” when the government tries to legislate something as acceptable when the Bible calls it an abomination. This not only includes homosexuality, of course, but all things that the world does that God calls evil. Now, I am certainly not calling upon government to fail to recognize a marriage because there was sin involved in the relationship. But that is clearly not a comparable circumstance, because the Bible doesn’t teach that the marriage itself is a bad thing. Not so for homosexuality. The Bible says it is detestable.

    Now, as for your comment, Yvette, about homosexuality vs. fill-in-the-blank other detestable sin, you are right. The Bible doesn’t make a distinction about the severity of these sins, and neither should we. My response, however, is clearly different. The Bible explicitly calls it’s followers to be holy, and so we shouldn’t put up with any of it. And the government, as distorted as it’s views may sometimes be, doesn’t make concession for these things either, as you allege. What about perjury, hearsay, and slander? Those are illegal and will get you jail time. And furthermore, I would certainly expect my church to deny the position as elder, for instance, on the basis of arrogance or falsehood.

    When the Bible says “no”, it means “no”. God’s Holy Word is not a buffet table to take from that which we desire alone. You and I are called to eat the whole thing. Can I get an “Amen” to that, at least?

    Sincerely (and hopefully inoffensively),
    Jon

  6. Bryan L October 14, 2007 at 11:31 pm #

    John are you really advocating that the government start legislating morality and locking people up if they do things the Bible call detestable (like what Yvette mentioned)? Do you really think the government should start sending homosexuals to jail (as well as people who lie or slander or gossip or who are greedy or who stir up dissension…)?

    Do you really want America to be a theocracy?

    Why?

  7. Yvette October 15, 2007 at 9:15 am #

    Jon,

    Thoroughly unoffensive. That’s why I like this blog. People don’t attack others like on other “Christian” blogs.

    Grace and peace.

  8. Aaron October 15, 2007 at 9:39 am #

    Bryan,

    The government already legislates morality.

  9. Bryan L October 15, 2007 at 10:06 am #

    By locking people up for the things I mentioned. If I lie to you or slander Joel Osteen on this blog are the police coming to take me to jail? If someone cheats on his wife or a couple gets divorced are they going to jail? Do they legislate it in that manner? Or are you speaking about things like murder or stealing or whatever?

    Blessings,
    Bryan L

    BTW Jon sorry for misspelling your name earlier.

  10. Jon October 17, 2007 at 8:03 am #

    Bryan and others,

    It’s time to turn the tables a little bit: Why should I think legislating homosexuality is an unimportant matter? Homosexuality, as all who read the Scriptures are aware, is listed among the most offensive sins and is never tolerated in Scripture. Legalizing homosexual marriage is admittance on the part of those involved in its legislation that it is an acceptable practice. I fully expect that even my own children should feel the weight of the consequences of their sin, regardless of the nature of the sin. Lying, cheating, stealing, murder, etc., all are wrong. Now, obviously, not all crime deserves the same earthly punishment. No government in history ever doled out the same consequence for petty theft as for first degree murder. But that doesn’t mean we should tolerate any of them. Recognizing homosexual marriage is tolerating homosexual marriage. The Scriptures cry “foul” and so do I. Oh, and I don’t advocate making slanderous remarks about Joel Osteen. Telling the truth about him and his beliefs is enough to condemn him.

    Jon

  11. Bryan L October 17, 2007 at 11:32 am #

    Jon,

    You said “Homosexuality, as all who read the Scriptures are aware, is listed among the most offensive sins and is never tolerated in Scripture.”

    So is not caring for the poor, aliens, widows and children. Look how often God punishes them for that (more so that homosexuality). How high up on your list is legislating that?

    Blessings,
    Bryan L

  12. Paul October 17, 2007 at 2:41 pm #

    Bryan,

    that’s just it. Either folks like Jon are about to head down a very slippery slope, or they’ll very quickly turn into hypocrites.

    adultery faces the same consequences in the Bible as homosexuality does. I am hoping that Jon tells his kids that people who sleep around ought to go to jail. Even the heterosexual ones.

    Being a stumbling block to others who are seeking Christ is also considered a heinous sin. I am hoping that Jon is seeking the death penalty for Tom DeLay, Ken Lay and every televangelist who has ever slandered the goodness of God with their greed.

    Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. So should every Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and Pagan be thrown in jail as well? For how long? And what about atheists that have no god at all? Do they get a pass?

    one of the reasons Israel was condemned was because of their lack of charity. Besides giving tithes to your church, what other charities have you given to this year Jon? Have you donated to the Salvation Army? Have you volunteered at a soup kitchen? Done anything to help those weaker than yourself? If not, what crime should we convict you of?

    Women are supposed to have their heads covered in church. Should we send cops in to raid every church where women don’t cover their heads?

    Either we live in a secular state where church and state are separate, or we live in a theocracy. Which one do you want us to live in, Jon? If it’s a secular state, then you have no rational reason for denying homosexuals the right to marry. If it’s a theocracy, then I’m moving somewhere with better taste in music and sport than this Brittany and NASCAR addicted society.

  13. Jon October 20, 2007 at 8:54 am #

    So am I being hypocritical or legalistic, in your opinion(s)? It is never a “slippery slope” to stand for what the Bible teaches. And who says I am neglecting other commands, such as the neglect of the fatherless and the widow? I gave a message at the local nursing home last weekend. Not that I’m trying to toot my own horn, but there are people out there who believe that what the Bible says is true, and try to live it out. ALL OF IT. And I accept the Scriptures as having verbal, plenary inspiration, and being best understood LITERALLY. You place yourself in the position of a judge when you try to decide which commands to uphold and which ones to let slide.

    Were the OT prophets wrong in demanding holiness from all the people? Was God wrong in taking Achen’s life to preserve the purity of the people when he was plundering loot against God’s will? Where do we draw the line? Why do we compromise when we could have God’s best? It is more loving to homosexuals to confront them with their sin then to tolerate it. AS WITH ANY SIN.

    And by the way, am I missing something? What would be so wrong with a theocracy, anyway? Not having the option of arguing over moral issues, or what?

    A little shocked and dismayed,
    Jon

  14. Paul October 26, 2007 at 12:27 am #

    “And by the way, am I missing something? What would be so wrong with a theocracy, anyway? Not having the option of arguing over moral issues, or what?”

    1) remember the puritans.

    2) pick any Islamic country, save for Turkey or Indonesia, and tell me if you like what you see.

    So, America becomes a theocracy. Which denomination gets to make the rules? If the Southern Baptists are the rule makers, then what to make of the peace churches or the more mainline denominations? What if good ol’ Mitt is the guy who turns us into a theocracy. You ready to go to jail for knocking Mormonism?

    And while I am sure that you would say that we’d leave the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus and the Buddhists alone, you forget that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I’d guarantee major killing off of some political hot button group within 10 years.

    And if you think that we as Christians are too peaceful for that, I’d remind you to take a look around at what conservative and supposedly Christian pundits have suggested.

    Theocracies are dangerous things. People who own history books and read them every once in a while understand this.

  15. Jon October 27, 2007 at 8:40 am #

    Paul,
    I am fully aware that theocracies are dangerous things. But they also have the potential of lending some great benefits. I was simply pointing out that democracy has some serious issues, as well. Look at where we’ve come to in this country. There are a lot of theocracies out there at least that don’t legalize the murder of the unborn. I just think that this country needs some accountability. I’m not necessarily advocating that theocracy is the answer, but keeping our mouths shut (which is the same as convincing the world that their views are acceptable) is certainly not the answer.

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