John Piper on Barack Obama

John Piper released a short video today with some wise observations about the presidential election. Among the other things he talked about, his assessment of Barack Obama is particularly helpful.

“Abortion is an evil the scope of which and depths of which very few people in our culture feel. The magnitude of it’s just horrific. . . 12 million black babies dead since 1973. I don’t think Barack Obama will touch that with a ten foot pole. And he should. . . He’s the most radical abortion proponent in the United States Congress, and that’s tragic.”

You can see the rest of Piper’s remarks in the video above.

67 Responses to John Piper on Barack Obama

  1. james brown October 31, 2008 at 2:34 pm #

    If the progressives win they truly will attempt to stifle the John Pipers of our world. Satan is committed to it.

  2. JM October 31, 2008 at 2:47 pm #

    That’s probably the best 7 minutes I’ve spent thinking about the election. The emphasis on the prophetic perspectice, the sovereignty of God, and the Gospel is right on. I haven’t been talking about this election nearly enough in that type langauge.

    Thank you Denny for bringing this to my attention.

  3. Darius October 31, 2008 at 2:57 pm #

    To be fair, the point of the video is not Barack Obama’s record on abortion. In fact, a friend of mine just saw this video and came away from it thinking that Piper is going to vote for Obama. The POINT of the video is that Christians need to realize that this election doesn’t change our ultimate goal and calling: spreading the gospel. And, as Piper points out, perhaps spreading the gospel will be easier in an Obama government. That’s not to say that we should want an Obama presidency, just that we don’t know if God’s Kingdom will in fact come more easily with Barack in charge (even if every single one of his policies is anti-God).

  4. John October 31, 2008 at 3:15 pm #

    Darius,

    “Every single one” – Come on dude, don’t resort to that. I don’t care if you don’t like him or you’re not going to vote for him, but please don’t stoop to that kind of language, it’s dishonest. I wouldn’t care if you said “many,” but “every single one”? That’s just simply not true and there’s no place for it in civil dialog.

  5. disputatio October 31, 2008 at 3:16 pm #

    Darius,

    Well said. The title of Denny’s post is quite misleading. Obama’s position on abortion was not the crux of Piper’s comments. Not sure why he would do such a thing. It seems to ignore Piper’s plea for Christians to maintain a prophetic perspective. Would it not have been just as absurd if Denny titled his post “Piper on Sarah Palin’s Disobedience to God”? Christians must not vote or engage in politics as the heathens do, who have no hope. FWIW, i’m almost certain Piper will NOT be voting for Obama.

    http://www.upper-register.com/blog/?p=237

  6. disputatio October 31, 2008 at 3:18 pm #

    Darius,

    Are you opposed to merit pay for teachers? I believe that is one of Obama’s positions.

  7. Darius October 31, 2008 at 3:30 pm #

    John (and I guess disputatio in his second comment), I wasn’t saying that all of Obama’s positions are anti-God, just that even IF (perhaps I should have emphasized the “if” more) they are all anti-God, the gospel may in fact spread more rapidly. Some of his positions are at the very least neutral.

  8. Darius October 31, 2008 at 3:36 pm #

    “FWIW, i’m almost certain Piper will NOT be voting for Obama. ”

    I agree, I think that while he played his cards pretty close, Piper also made it pretty clear that his eyes are wide open about Obama’s pro-abortion beliefs. And thus, there is no way that he would vote for him. But again, the point of that video was not to talk about who to vote for or why, but that God is sovereign and ultimately, while Christians SHOULD vote, they should also remember the God is in control and sovereign.

    Denny, this is the first post of yours with which I’m a little disappointed (besides your pro-SEC football ones :)), since you significantly distorted the main thrust of Piper’s video. Perhaps you can edit it to be more faithful to the intent of the video.

  9. Ferg October 31, 2008 at 3:41 pm #

    “Abortion is the judgement of God”

    I’m disgusted at those comments. How can Piper on the one hand call abortion such a great evil, and on the other hand call it the judgement of God. I truly find that outrageous.

  10. Denny Burk October 31, 2008 at 3:47 pm #

    It is my aim in this post to highlight his remarks about Obama, not to imply that those remarks are all that he had to say. So I changed the intro to the quote, and I hope this allays concerns. It now reads as follows:

    “John Piper released a short video today with some wise observations about the presidential election. Among the other things he talked about, his assessment of Barack Obama is particularly helpful.”

  11. Paul October 31, 2008 at 3:49 pm #

    “12 million black babies dead since 1973. I don’t think Barack Obama will touch that with a ten foot pole.”

    Maybe he should. What I want to see is an economic class breakdown of mothers of aborted babies, not only for the black community, but across the board.

    And then I want Obama to remind all of the “pro-life” folk who do little to help those less fortunate than themselves that prospective mothers would probably feel better about bringing new life into the world when they know that said child will have clothes on their back, be able to go to a decent school and not have to worry about being beaten in to a gang when they’re 8 years old.

    I want Obama to remind ignorant folks that use welfare as a code word that what’s really needed is for our congresspeople, Republican and Democrat to start implementing job training as a requirement for receiving state sanctioned benefits. And, also, subsidized day care has got to be on the table too. If a family ends up spending half of their monthly income on daycare, it’s a lot easier to sit at home and help to breed future generations of welfare culture.

    The “pro-lifers” that think that being pro-life stops when a baby is born are the reason that this battle will never be won, no matter who wins the presidency.

    As Steven Colbert once said, “Reality has a well known liberal bias.”

    Remember that, and we might have a real shot at reducing the reasons why people have abortions. Forget that, and we’ll continue to have legalized abortion on demand, even with 23 out of 35 years of “pro-lifers” leading the country during Roe’s lifespan.

  12. Darius October 31, 2008 at 4:25 pm #

    Thanks Denny.

  13. disputatio October 31, 2008 at 4:30 pm #

    John Piper on Barack Obama

    “…a lot of people, like me, who look at the horrors of racism and the history of slavery, and say, ‘amazing, a golden moment, right?…a golden opportunity to have an African-American president.'”

  14. Darius October 31, 2008 at 4:33 pm #

    “I’m disgusted at those comments. How can Piper on the one hand call abortion such a great evil, and on the other hand call it the judgement of God. I truly find that outrageous.”

    What exactly disgusts you, Ferg? The crucifixion of Christ was a very great evil, yet in a real way, it was the wrath (judgment) of God poured out. Abortion is a terrible evil, but it is one that Americans have chosen out of rebellion and so we have faced the consequences of our choice and His judgment (the annihilation of our babies, and the debauchery of our youth). This is kind of along the same lines as what Tim Keller teaches about Hell… Hell is not just God’s judgment, it’s our chosen path. The rich man in Hell in the Bible doesn’t ask to be brought to heaven, he just asks for a drink of water.

  15. Darius October 31, 2008 at 4:35 pm #

    Touche, disputatio, touche.

  16. Darius October 31, 2008 at 4:35 pm #

    Hey Ferg, on a separate note, how are you enjoying the Dalrymple book?

  17. Ferg October 31, 2008 at 4:51 pm #

    Can you believe I’m still waiting on the book??
    I’ve written a couple of e-mails to the company and they know they messed up, they’ve sent out another copy. Thanks for asking!
    The thing that frustrates me with Pipers comment is that, like you said at the start of your sentence
    “Abortion is a terrible evil, but it is one that Americans have chosen out of rebellion and so we have faced the consequences of our choice”.
    I just draw the line in thinking that it is part of God’s plan to kill millions of babies to teach what lesson? What is learn’t from that? that sin is bad? God has never needed to use evil like abortion to teach a lesson that people don’t even know about.

  18. Mark Gibson October 31, 2008 at 5:20 pm #

    Paul,

    I would like to see Obama and Biden give some of their own money to help mothers raise their kids. Look at their tax returns. Obama didn’t start donating to charity until he started running for POTUS. Joe Biden has averaged a $300k income over the past 10 years, yet he has only averaged $300/year in charitable contribution over that time period. That’s much different than Bush, Cheney, and the McCains. Liberals will only be compassionate with other people’s money.

    Did anyone else see that Obama’s aunt is living in the slums of Boston? Add that to his half brother living off of $12 a year. So much for being your brother’s keeper.

  19. Darius October 31, 2008 at 5:29 pm #

    Mark, Obama (and liberals in general) want YOU to be their brother’s keeper. In this case, quite literally. 🙂

  20. Brian (Another) October 31, 2008 at 6:27 pm #

    Gary Thomas wrote a really good article that just continues to strike at the heart.

    As Piper stated: “vote as though not voting”. Dr. Piper correctly points out that getting too worked up about voting or someone not winning that you think should (“the united states is not my allegiance, God…is…always pursuing His kingdom.”) should cause you to question your motives (God- versus man-centered). That’s a great point that I (personally) have to keep in mind.

    That said, I’m just understanding a vote for Obama less and less (from a Christian trying to justify it). I definitely believe (to the disbelief of some) that God ordains kings and leaders (see Piper’s quotes!). And I won’t cease working for the kingdom. Oh, well.

  21. Dan October 31, 2008 at 11:39 pm #

    I’m actually surprised. I agree (in part) with John Piper.

    Piper’s talk about people getting obsessed with the election and putting all their hopes and dreams on their candidate getting elected is right on.

    The Kingdom of God isn’t tied up in politics. It isn’t deterred by what is happening in the World.

    Thank you John Piper, my brother in Christ, and others like you (Greg Boyd, Dallas Willard, and others) who put the focus on the Kingdom of God advancing.

  22. Paul November 1, 2008 at 1:07 am #

    “Mark, Obama (and liberals in general) want YOU to be their brother’s keeper. In this case, quite literally. :)”

    Yes, Darius speaks for all of us liberals. We don’t donate to anything. Denny, you need to make the eye rolling smiley available when it’s needed in situations like this. Now it helps with us mennonites that we can give to the church and tithe, we can give to MCC and know that we’re helping out missionaries all over the world, or we can shop at 10K Villages and support Mennonite 3rd World Relief efforts at the same time that we’re buying nifty little clotchkies for presents.

    “I would like to see Obama and Biden give some of their own money to help mothers raise their kids. Look at their tax returns. Obama didn’t start donating to charity until he started running for POTUS. Joe Biden has averaged a $300k income over the past 10 years, yet he has only averaged $300/year in charitable contribution over that time period. That’s much different than Bush, Cheney, and the McCains. Liberals will only be compassionate with other people’s money.”

    As someone that works for a 501(c)3, I have to say, I’d love to see a couple of things…

    1) who’s making that claim?

    2) what they’re justifying as a charitable contribution?

    I know some people strictly define charitable giving as giving to A CHARITY (so even tithing wouldn’t count), and some people define it as giving to any non-profit.

    I will most certainly say that if Biden and or Obama were tithing their 10%, then that certainly shouldn’t be held against them because they didn’t give to the march of dimes.

    And trust me, with Obama going to a black church that PRIDES itself on being a black church (I’ve worshipped in ’em and I’ve played in ’em), he gave. As a member of the church, he would have been called out if he didn’t.

  23. BrianW November 1, 2008 at 11:02 am #

    I find Piper’s comments about Palin most interesting. Finally, a complimentarian willing to state clearly what the obvious implication of the position is: a woman ought not to have this kind of position and should stay home and mother her children. Its clear while there are many people who endorse the complimentarian position, Piper is one of the few who has the spine to take the position to its logical conclusion. I’m curious why other complimentarians have been shy to “stand up for biblical authority”? Why the timidity (that’s my take on it, anyway)?

  24. Don November 1, 2008 at 11:42 am #

    To me it is clear that CBMW is trying its best to clear away any objections among its adherents to voting for McCain/Palin, despite reservations they may have.

  25. Derek November 1, 2008 at 11:46 am #

    I am a little bit surprised that Piper considers race to be such an important factor in terms of how we as Christians should vote or in terms of how we should view this election. I actually think Martin Luther King himself probably framed things more appropriately (than Piper) when he said that:

    we should judge a person by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

    Emotional appeals, for or against a candidate on the basis of race are ultimately harmful, in my view.

  26. John November 1, 2008 at 1:32 pm #

    BrianW, I totally agree. I have always stated that if these diehard complementarians (like Denny and Mohler) had 2 males on the Republican ticket, and 1 male 1 female on the Democratic ticket, then they would use complementarian arguments. However, they don’t use them in this case; they try to explain their reasoning away and kind of stay away from the topic. I’ve actually found it quite humorous. I mean, they could at least say that they don’t like it, but they will vote for them just because they think other moral issues outweigh the female issue. I would respect that, but that’s not what they say. The exegetical and logical gymnastics Mohler has done have been nothing short of amusing.

  27. Darius November 1, 2008 at 4:26 pm #

    I have said on at least one occasion that I preferred two men on the ticket, but that the issue was obviously not a priority. Piper seemed to believe the same thing, though he was pretty ambiguous about it. I think most complementarians on here would agree. Now, if it were for pastor of a church, that would be a different priority list (mostly because the issues change).

  28. D.J. Williams November 1, 2008 at 5:38 pm #

    Ferg said…
    “I’m disgusted at those comments. How can Piper on the one hand call abortion such a great evil, and on the other hand call it the judgement of God. I truly find that outrageous.”

    Perhaps in the same way that Isaiah 10:5 can declare the Assyrian invasion as God’s judgment and then the remainder of the chapter can declare that the Assyrian invasion is evil and will incur God’s wrath.

  29. Darius November 1, 2008 at 6:05 pm #

    DJ, thanks for the reference to Scripture… I was drawing a blank for an analogy from Scripture which would fit Ferg’s question just right, but you nailed it.

  30. Russ November 1, 2008 at 6:34 pm #

    I’m not a big Piper fan, but really appreciate this little video and find myself resonating a great deal with what he is saying. I’m not sure I follow on the “abortion is the judgment” line of thought, but I might agree with a little more explanation. I have no idea where he is coming from in terms of a woman not being commander and chief, but he’s certainly entitled to such a view and I appreciate him being honest about it.

    On balance, will Piper be ‘Baracking the vote?”

    I think we can assume not… but still fun to consider. 🙂

  31. John November 1, 2008 at 9:11 pm #

    Hey Denny,

    I’m curious; what do you think about Piper’s comments about Palin? He seemed to be consistent in his complementarian beliefs, and I would honestly like to know what you think about them. You have refrained from giving your opinion ever since her nomination. What gives man? You’ve posted Mohler’s opinion, but you have remained silent. Mohler and Piper contradict one another. What do you think?

  32. Derek November 1, 2008 at 10:54 pm #

    Russ,
    Sin brings separation and death. Abortion solves a short term problem but leaves a lasting scar, tremendous heartache, regret and often, depression. Many times, a woman will have an abortion to please a boyfriend or husband, and this leads to a breakdown in trust, intimacy and love – which usually results in another broken relationship, unless there is some form of repentance. As a pastor, Piper likely sees these damaging effects with the people he counsels – and rightly calls this a “curse” in and of itself.

    We also see from Scripture that one of the worst things God does with those who reject Him and/or His counsel, is to simply leave them alone and allow them to sin without apparent consequence (obviously this is an illusion, but a very powerful one). So I think Piper is right when he says that our nation is already spinning around in a vicious cycle (culturally, spiritually and morally).

    The sad thing is that the consequences will get progressively harsher and hearts may become even more hardened.

  33. Lamont November 1, 2008 at 10:59 pm #

    To the complimentarians,

    While the scripture explicity prescribes the woman’s role in the family and the church, does scripture likewise describe her role in civil society?

    I, too, am a complimenatarian but maybe I am missing something.

  34. Lamont November 1, 2008 at 11:04 pm #

    Derek,

    Piper did not make any “emotional” appeal regarding race. He addressed America’s history and race as an issue of injustice and immorality. He didn’t encourage an Obama vote but did note that it would be a real “moment” in light of America’s unrighteous history.

    King said much more than that standard “race-avoidance” quote used by certain folks, who are usually non-black.

  35. John November 2, 2008 at 12:10 am #

    I agree Derek. The problem I think many of us have with “judgment” language is that it sounds like God is the cause of it. Like God is causing all these abortions and making people get them. I think a better solution is, as you say, that God just simply “leaves us alone” or takes his hand off of us, and this is a form of divine judgment. The blame is not with him, it is with us…100% of it.

    Thanks for the great insight.

  36. Derek November 2, 2008 at 1:15 am #

    Lamont,
    If that was Piper’s only point, that is fine- but the reality is that many people are voting on the basis of their racial biases and Piper seems – to this observer anyway – to be championing that (as a valid reason to support Obama).

    I agree with the vast majority of what Piper says, but these comments in addition to this extreme application of complementarian theology sure does make it look like Piper is just trying to validate the viewpoints of Obama supporters. I suppose it isn’t terribly surprising, given the fact that his church is in a very liberal city.

  37. BrianW November 2, 2008 at 8:21 am #

    For those of you who are wondering what the consistent and honest complimentarian position should be concerning a woman’s ability to serve as President/Vice-Pres. here it is (from someone who doesn’t quite see things the way you do): Complimentarians argue that God has ordered into the very fabric of creation a hierarchy of roles between men and women. This is not a result of sin; this is God-ordered and God ordained. And it is good. Creation dictates this: not circumstances, not needs or issues and not cultures. This is why Palin ought not to be President (or governor, for that matter). While men and women are equal in the eyes of God as to our essence, there’s a hierarchy of roles and responsibilities. It is a man’s role and responsibility to lead and exercise authority; a woman may exercise authority, too, just not authority over a man for that would be inconsistent with the created order. To say, “well, I’m not sure if the complimentarian position necessarily means a women can’t serve authoritatively over men in the work place, just at home and the church” is to give up the very basis of the complimentarian position… that creation dictates this ordering.

  38. Lamont November 2, 2008 at 9:19 am #

    Yea, what do you think about Palin’s nomination, Denny?

  39. Don November 2, 2008 at 9:30 am #

    There are some who were a part of CBMW but now have left that say that men are God-ordained to be on top of women not only in the home and church, but also in society and they based this on the creation argument. CBMW wants to use the creation argument, but does not want to carry it into society, for their own reasons. However, this is a self-repudiation of their own argument. The more extreme non-egals and the egals have pointed this out to CBMW, but they do not seem to see it that way.

  40. Darius November 2, 2008 at 9:38 am #

    Derek (and others),

    Piper was not championing “voting for a black.” He was just making the point that it would, other issues ignored, make a great day when this country elects a black man.

  41. Darius November 2, 2008 at 9:40 am #

    Thanks Mark for the links. Obama is pathetic, but nothing compared to Biden. .11%??? He is the prototypical liberal elite: pretends to be from Scranton, pretends to care for the “little guy,” but when it comes down to it, he can’t be troubled to do his share.

  42. John November 2, 2008 at 11:58 am #

    Denny,

    We want to hear your thoughts about Palin please.

  43. Sue November 2, 2008 at 1:04 pm #

    Yes, of course, are men by nature the commanders of women, or only within the sphere of the spiritual. Is it salvation or creation which makes man the leader of woman?

    As someone quoted elsewhere, John Knox said,

    “To promote a woman to bear rule, superiority, dominion, or empire above any realm, nation, or city, is repugnant to nature, contumely [an insult] to God, a thing most contrary to his revealed will and approved ordinance, and finally, it is the subversion of good order, of all equity and justice.”

    Can we lump all women leaders together and say that they subvert equity and justice, where as men do not?

  44. Denny Burk November 2, 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    Hey, everyone. Go read Piper’s clarification here:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1474_Why_a_Woman_Shouldnt_Run_for_Vice_President_but_Wise_People_May_Still_Vote_for_Her/

    He says:

    “Not only that, a person with my view may very well vote for a woman to be President if the man running against her holds views and espouses policies that may, as far as we can see, do more harm to more people than we think would be done by electing a woman President and thus exalting a flawed pattern of womanhood. In my view, defending abortion is far worse sin for a man than serving as Vice President is for a woman.”

  45. Russ November 2, 2008 at 4:38 pm #

    I think what really throws me on this video regarding the ‘woman issue,’ is Piper’s specific reference to their being a Biblical problem with a woman being commander and chief of the armed forces. THAT (specifically) puts her in an awkward position, says Piper. Huh?

    Can anyone tell me why he would single out the one aspect of presidential leadership as being the one that puts her in an ‘awkward position?

  46. disputatio November 2, 2008 at 5:24 pm #

    “For the look on their faces bears witness against them; they proclaim their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves. Tell the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds. Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him. My people—infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.” – Isaiah 3:9-12

    “…train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” – Titus 2:4b-5

  47. Russ November 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm #

    disputatio…

    Not sure if you meant you comment to be a direct response to my question or not.

    I get the over-all argument, it just seems odd that Piper singles out being the commander of the armed forces as the specific problem. That is what strikes me as odd.

  48. JWilliams November 2, 2008 at 6:50 pm #

    At least John Piper is consistent with his views, treating the McCain/Palin ticket as the “lesser of two evils”. Thus, some complementarians would vote for McCain/Palin.

    That being said, perhaps other complementarians would consider abortion as being the lesser of two evils, and vote for Obama/Biden instead.

  49. Darius November 2, 2008 at 10:23 pm #

    “That being said, perhaps other complementarians would consider abortion as being the lesser of two evils, and vote for Obama/Biden instead.”

    That would be a rare complementarian to have his priorities so mixed up.

  50. Sue November 3, 2008 at 12:09 am #

    At least John Piper is consistent with his views, treating the McCain/Palin ticket as the “lesser of two evils”. Thus, some complementarians would vote for McCain/Palin.

    That being said, perhaps other complementarians would consider abortion as being the lesser of two evils, and vote for Obama/Biden instead.

    Doesn’t anyone see that abortion really is an evil and being a woman is not!

  51. Darius November 3, 2008 at 10:06 am #

    Does anyone see that being a woman is not evil, but being a woman in leadership could be?

  52. Brian (Another) November 3, 2008 at 10:49 am #

    Sue:

    Normally you offer a great perspective and good argumentation. I am perhaps the commenter that is least versed in argumentation on this site, but your comments on a couple of threads now (the “women are evil” stunts) are surprising and, honestly, appear troll-like (simply intended to draw someone “offsides” intended solely to inflame or incense). It also seems very uncharacteristic of you. Just to address the “woman is evil” thing, then, the statement is the same as saying that the Israelites committed evil in the Lord’s eyes. Thus being an Israelite is evil. Perhaps someone has actually said “being a woman is evil”. I could possibly have missed it. But I don’t think so and that is such a straw-man (and perhaps I should have not even bothered commenting about it?) that I am utterly flabbergasted.

    While we don’t agree with you on issues related to 2Tim2, Eph 5, Col 3, 1 Peter 3, Titus 2, etc., you traditionally stick to the issues. If you believe that Palin is not being unbiblical here (I’ll go out on a limb and say that is the case), then make the argument (you’ve never shied away before on similars (sic)).

  53. Brian (Another) November 3, 2008 at 11:12 am #

    BTW, While we don’t agree with you… was meant to be “while we don’t agree”, meaning Sue and I don’t. I wrote the rest of it with the intention of saying “I don’t agree with you” (again, indicating Sue and I don’t agree). I do not cast my thoughts or opinions upon anyone here (in particular Dr. Burk!). Sorry for my oversight and mis-type. I should have been more careful. D’oh!

  54. Sue November 3, 2008 at 5:07 pm #

    Just to address the “woman is evil” thing, then, the statement is the same as saying that the Israelites committed evil in the Lord’s eyes. Thus being an Israelite is evil. Perhaps someone has actually said “being a woman is evil”.

    I believe that the Israelites actually did something that was evil. However, in this recent discussion here, abortion is the evil. So, the discussion is between

    1) a woman doing a good thing, being against abortion

    2) a man doing an evil thing, being pro abortion.

    If these two “evils” must be weighed, then one can only come the conclusion that being a woman is somehow evil. I don’t think men really understand how women feel about being talked about this way.

    For many years, I too went along with this. I too nodded assent along with the otehr women of my acquaintance.

    But, a couple of years ago, I was simply stopped in my tracks by having a study by Grudem quoted to me. I then realized that neither this, nor much else that was taught in church accorded with what I had been taught in my classical and Hellenistic Greek education.

    Now that I have carefully studied all the major papers, I find each one of the papers which innovates on the meaning of the Greek text, whether 1 Tim. 2:12, kephale or Junia and many others, has some glaring flaw. There is always some piece of evidence quoted that is contrary to the way Greek actually works.

    (Others have published on this too. I am not alone on this. But I have checked every single citation just to make sure. I have really had all faith in these studies destroyed.)

    This research of mine, which I have more or less concluded, has freed me to ask whether I have perhaps been led too easily to believe what men say the Bible says about women. I see that this is true. There is nothing in the Bible that says that a woman cannot be a strong leader. The word strong is used frequently for women. There are leading women, and women protectors in the Greek of the NT.

    So, finally, I really feel that this veil has been torn away. Now, when men say that a woman leader is the lesser of two evils, I must ask, “Why do you call ‘woman’ evil?”

    Now, after being spoken of for my entire lifetime in this way, now, I feel it. It is very painful. So I ask this question.

    I have had to leave the church I used to attend because it has opened itself up to the influence of CBMW and Bruce Ware. This is not an idle hobby for me. I see many marriages torn apart by the teaching that women must be subordinate, and many young women in total confusion about the fact that a woman cannot be treated as an equal.

    I simply want to say, yes, women feel it. And it is painful, very painful.

  55. Brian Krieger November 4, 2008 at 10:16 am #

    Sue:

    You rightly make a heartfelt and emotional cry for women who are dominated. Men take a biblical complementarian position and apply it in a sinful manner. And that is atrocious. They are no better than the false teachers demanding payment for their religion, ensuring salvation. My personal feeling is that it is worse as it too often involves physical atrocities and a multiple of other sins. I cannot say I feel your pain nor will I say that I can even fathom it. I also must say that you are far wiser than I. I am not even beginning to approach understanding classical/Hellenistic Greek, much less expert enough to conduct my own studies of it. However, I have read a great deal on this topic. And while I am in no place to be writing think pieces on why a translation should be taken one way or another, I feel confident in the complementarian position. Often the argumentation I’ve heard against comp is one of special knowledge, individualizing texts to deconstruct them or construct arguments based on assumptions of how a complementarian view should go based on the arguers position (in essence a stronger version of straw man).

    Now, concerning the woman is evil, you replaced your straw man argument for reasons why you wanted to set up a straw man argument and then simply emphasized it. The crux is that the view by Dr. Piper is that his complementarian view extends to the commander-in-chief. He views that to be sinful not the attribute of being a woman (that’s akin to saying that if I sleep with this other woman, I’m committing the sin of adultery because I’m married. Therefore being married must be sinful.).

    Again, I have always appreciated your thoughts (even if we do disagree). The question came across (still continues to, actually, but oh, well) as simply acerbic.

  56. Sue November 4, 2008 at 11:53 am #

    I believe it was clearly said that a woman commander in chief is the lesser of two evils, she is therefore an evil.

    I cannot feel that my comment was other than a simple restatement of what was articulated by someone else. It is only your opinion that when I honestly rephrase what a man said that it is acerbic.

    I have left complementarian Christianity, so on the one hand, I should no longer feel that it impinges on my life. But I have to accept that my life so far has been lived under deceit (factual deceit) and in my case, severe damage from the sinful, very sinful, exercise of authority over me. I see it as simply wrongly taken power. This is fact.

    So, on the one hand, exegesis, which I found to be faulty, and on the other hand, treatment from men which was simply beyond the bounds of civil society.

    I cannot believe that Christendom should allow this treatment of women, that they should become simply the disempowered objects of whatever treatment they receive.

    Women usually suffer in silence or leave and are never heard from again. I chose to engage with the arguments and find out the truth.

  57. Sue November 4, 2008 at 11:57 am #

    If many of the studies which are used to prop up the complementarian belief system are wrong, then it must be put out on the table on the basis of its merits before a just God. So, also with the treatment of women as equals. If some of the studies which support the equal treatment of women seem wrong, then what are the merits before God of treating women as equals.

    Putting faulty scholarship aside what does God think of these two options?

  58. Brian Krieger November 4, 2008 at 12:19 pm #

    I cannot feel that my comment was other than a simple restatement of what was articulated by someone else.

    Then we are at an impasse. Thanks for the responses.

  59. Darius Teichroew November 4, 2008 at 12:34 pm #

    “I believe it was clearly said that a woman commander in chief is the lesser of two evils, she is therefore an evil.”

    This is amazingly dishonest logic, as two different commenters have already shown with useful analogies. How can you be taken seriously when you twist people’s words in such a manner? It doesn’t help your case, and further confirms that you are probably also twisting the words of God.

  60. Darius Teichroew November 4, 2008 at 12:40 pm #

    Sue, you are fortunate that you live in such a time where heresy and false teaching are treated so flippantly within the Church. In another age, the Church would have rightly disciplined you through loving correction and, if you were yet unrepentant, dismissed you from the Body. Today, my guess is that not a few churches would welcome you into their fold without any qualms with the significant error in your view of God and His Word.

    Orthodoxy is not everything, but neither is orthopraxy. Christians are called to right actions AND right belief. Right actions without a corresponding correct view of God are just works of the law, which will burn up like chaff. Right belief without a true love for one’s brother and neighbor is empty doctrine.

  61. Sue November 5, 2008 at 1:35 am #

    Sue, you are fortunate that you live in such a time where heresy and false teaching are treated so flippantly within the Church.

    It is always unsafe to assume anything when you are talking to someone on the internet. I know nothing of churches which treat even the slightest variation from prescribed orthodoxy flippantly. Here is is <a href=”http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-we-renounced-theology.html”a story from my childhood.

    “I believe it was clearly said that a woman commander in chief is the lesser of two evils, she is therefore an evil.”

    This is amazingly dishonest logic

    What can one use to complete the sentence,

    “It is evil for a man to __________ “, if the thing itself is a good thing?

    So, if one says,

    “It is evil for a woman to _____________”, also about a good thing, then it is the “woman” in the sentence that is evil.

  62. Sue November 5, 2008 at 1:36 am #

    I’ll try again. Here.

  63. Darius Teichroew November 5, 2008 at 7:44 am #

    “I know nothing of churches which treat even the slightest variation from prescribed orthodoxy flippantly.”

    Well, then you need to get out more. Check out many American Anglican churches, or the United Church of Christ. Those two are good bets that you’ll find very lukewarm treatment of orthodoxy there.

  64. Sue November 5, 2008 at 2:38 pm #

    Darius,

    Honestly, I tried. I attended an evangelical Anglican church, hoping for a more open attitude. Unfortuntately it was the church where J. I. Packer attends. I was distressed by his signing the Statement of Concern Against the TNIV, and was appalled that he was not in any way reprimanded for this.

    The godly translators of the TNIV did not deserve the actions of CBMW against them. This is the main reason that I post on Denny’s blog. I have no other access to make my serious complaints against the actions of CBMW for their statement against the TNIV.

    It is agreed by Packer that it is not wrong to call Christians “children of God” as is found in the KJV and Luther’s Bible, nor is it wrong to state that adelphoi means “brothers and sisters” in the most literal way. In fact, brother and sister pairs were routinely called adelphoi in Greek. This is not that they were called “brothers” but that adelphoi is used as the plural for adelphe and adelphos, brother and sister.

    It was this error in the statement of concern against the TNIV which tipped me off to the fact that this statement was composed entirely without reference to Greek lexicons. There is no disagreement on this. Everyone concerned agrees that the statement of concern against the TNIV was composed without reference to Greek lexicons.

    That and the mistranslation of 2 Tim. 2:2 in the ESV, with “men” instead of “people” as is in the Greek.

    Would you like me to review the factual errors in the statement of concern against the TNIV?

    As I said, I know nothing of churches which are flippant about heresy. I am all too familar with churches that trump up charges of heresy against fellow Christians.

    Once again, I appeal to Denny to ask CBMW to take down the Statement of concern against the TNIV. As you may know, Fee and Waltke are among the translators. I have seen no end of negative treatment one Christian against another.

  65. Sue November 5, 2008 at 3:22 pm #

    I would like to add that I have seen other godly men disfellowshipped as well.

    I do not kid myself that moving to a more liberal church will in any way bring me into a more open fellowship. I despair of righteousness in the church.

    The least I ask for is an open dialogue on facts. But this is denied.

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