Comments on: Irving Bible Church Goes Egalitarian?

By: jsh

jsh — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 18:06:50 +0000

I was disturbed to read the IBC report-My family was members there for over 5 years and we left a little over 3 yrs ago. I can say in the 5 yrs, I sure felt everything getting more shallow and more watered down. The focus was on comfort and “feel good.” We were more than attenders, as we were active in several areas but enough was enough. Interesting hearing about the lack of negative comments, because I know of many families leaving the church but in a church that size nobody will notice.

By: Dewey Cooper

Dewey Cooper — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:03:25 +0000

As a former member, leader, and teacher at IBC, I may be able to shed some light on this issue and their mindset. IBC started as a Bible study in a BBQ restaruant. As they grew and became a church, they hired a young DTS graduate named Chuck Swindoll, who they fired for being to ‘progressive’. They then went through several other pastors, finally settling on Toussaint.
I started going to IBC when it had only about 400 attendees on Finley Rd (a well established lower to middle income area) with Andy as the pastor.Dr. Fanning was also an elder at this time. The focus of IBC at this time was on Biblical instruction and Evangilism first, membership second. As the church grew, many of us participated in the Experiencing God study, geared at devining God’s Will in such issues. I cannot count how many times the issue of splitting the church into different locations was qualshed by the belief that only Andy can teach us. And so the decision to build a mega church was reached. And that is when the real trouble began.
As plans were made for a new facility, I personally witnessed various ministries fighting over square footage and usage. Once the building was built (in a very effluant section of town), attendance went from 400 to 1200 in less than a year, which Andy documented for his disortation at DTS. And the focus went from Spiritual growth to putting ‘meat in the seats’ to pay the mortage and future projects. Slowly, the foundations of the church began to leave with little concern, as sermons were nothing more than fluff pieces designed not to offend the rush of new money coming in.
While serving as one of the Singles Ministry leaders, I asked Andy about what constitutes a ‘church’ and a pastor’s roll, as there were several women who were conducting their own Communion. This was about 10 years ago, and Andy informed me at that time that he saw no reason why women could not be deaconesses or even pastors. He brought out the whole ’societel’ argument. My question to him was not about whether women were capable of teaching, but whether it was their responsibility. He had no response.
Based upon this discussion with Andy, as well as the new focus of his teachings I left. Over the past years, most of the men with strong Biblical knowledge and insight have also left, including Dr. Fanning. In their place are accountants with theology degrees, coffee shops, and now a woman pastor taking Andy’s responibility. A responibility I contend he freely gave away years ago.
When we start arguing that details of a book written centuries ago are ’societal’ and can thus be ignored, where do we stop? After all, wasn’t the need for a sacrifice a ’societel’ issue that is not in place today? In Genisis, God established a paternal hierarchy (not the other way around) with Adam as the instructor. The leaders of Isrial were men because that is how God established it (not the other way around), and women were used as the exception when men would not be responsible, not the rule. The same holds true in the New Testament Church.

By: Brian foulks

Brian foulks — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:40:33 +0000

Brother,
Maybe I am a little misinformed but what constitutes “God’s ideal ethic for His people?”

By: tracy

tracy — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:39:06 +0000

This makes me so sad. Oh how we are changing with the culture..I agree with Tom Nelson..we tred on dangerous ground. =(

By: Denny Burk » First Female Preacher at Irving Bible Church

Denny Burk » First Female Preacher at Irving Bible Church — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 04:00:29 +0000

[...] May, I wrote about the egalitarian shift at Irving Bible Church (IBC). The elders had just completed an 18-month [...]

By: Don Johnson

Don Johnson — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:34:59 +0000

There is no indefinite article (a/an) in Greek, so it just says “woman” it might mean “a woman”, it might mean “the woman” or it might be about a group that is female, which might reduce to the above.

1 Tim 2:15 is talking about a specific woman and the she needs to refer back to someone still living, so this is a clue that 1 Tim 2:12 is talking about a specific woman (or possible group of specific women at Ephesus).

In any case, there is so much uncertainty that this it is not wise to use this verse to restrict women. In other words, we simply are not sure about 1 Tim 2:12 and what it meant to the original reader, Timothy; altho we can be confident Timothy knew.

If one CHOOSES to interpret this verse to restrict women, then one should acknowledge that one is making that choice and that other choices can be faithfully made.

By: Kathy

Kathy — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:12:45 +0000

Hi, Benjamin A

‘True. I could have simply gone to 1 Tim. 2:12 on the “I do not permit a woman…” passage. It doesn’t say ‘pick nose’. It says “teach and exercise authority over men”. I didn’t want to mention the “exercise authority” word however so that Sue didn’t feel the need to rewrite her exhaustive word study.’

That is not correct. There is no plural in the text. 1 Tim 2 does NOT say ‘I do not allow women to teach men.’ Paul says ‘a woman’, she is not allowed to teach ‘a man’. It is easy to understand that whether or not Paul was using ‘a woman’ genericaly or in reference to a specific woman is entirely determined by the context. So, the point is that before looking to the context, it is already a possiblity that Paul had in mind 1 woman.

Couple that with the context of false teachers in chp 1, and we have Paul possibly stopping 1 woman, who was teaching false doctrine, to 1 man.

I say, let the context tell us which Paul is speaking of…

By: Denny Burk » Tommy Nelson on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood

Denny Burk » Tommy Nelson on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:00:32 +0000

[...] the Dallas area as a result of a high-profile Bible church that recently embraced egalitarianism (read about it here). Pastor Nelson did a great job of confronting the error of egalitarianism and of setting forth a [...]

By: Truth Unites... and Divides

Truth Unites... and Divides — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:21:40 +0000

Steve Hayes, Thomas Wood, et al,

I’m glad that we can all agree that there is an objective and moral biblical justification and truth for either the adoption of Egalitarianism or Complementarianism. Let us agree that it’s not a matter of subjective preferences and that Scripture, which is the Inspired and Written Will of It’s Author is our final authority.

By: Thomas Wood

Thomas Wood — Fri, 16 May 2008 20:29:01 +0000

Sorry, I didn’t realize that Mr. Hayes had already responded to TUAD.