(going backwards here)

not even close. Barry and I have had at least one interesting conversation about some VERY good (and obscure) guitarists. I never said anything about copycats. What I DID say is that much of the CCM world tries to glom onto a secular craze and put a Christian spin on it, as opposed to trying to create something musically fresh. Everyone is going to be influenced by something. The key is to have ears that are big enough to encompass as much as possible. And that’s not a Christian problem, that’s a problem with unschooled musicians period, and there are far too many of them. And God created all of us musician types. Some just choose to blaspheme by using His name in some really awful music.

Music isn’t subjective. It’s very OBJECTIVE. It’s just that our sound-bite culture has wasted away the attention span of the average American. No words? People don’t get it. A solo section longer than 8 bars? The musicians are either showing off or noodling. Harmonic sophistication? Must be a Steely Dan or Radiohead knockoff. Songs about something other than boy/girl relationships? The band is weird. etc, etc, etc. And that’s just in the secular world.

I’m hardly contrarian. I just feel the need to voice a concern that I have. And it’s a concern that I wish I didn’t have. I really wish that I could walk into the local “Family Bookstore” and pick up something that sounds spectacular. However, with very few exceptions, I can’t do that. Insofar as the “not as good as the Grateful Dead” comment goes, all I’m saying is that the Dead set the bar for what an improvising unit CAN sound like. It’s up to bands that come after them to expand on that sound. Water Deep didn’t. At least not to my ears. Tell me what to check out, and I’ll go take a listen to it.

And while a download of a live show doesn’t give one the COMPLETE idea of what was going on, it gives the most important part. I can download practically any Charlie Hunter or Fareed Haque show and be seriously blown away by what I just heard. Even without all of the distractions that a live show provides.

As for how and why people think of the Dead, their legacy has been tarnished by ignorant public opinion just as much as Frank Zappa’s has. Both were artistic monsters who are remembered for peripheral stuff. The Dead for their fans (both the good and bad of them), and Zappa for silly lyrics. Which is sad, because both of them deserve so much better in the halls of public opinion.

All of which leads me to my point: give me a Christian band that somebody can get into a heated discussion about. If that’s one of the bands previously mentioned, then rock on, I’m sure I’ll be asking you for more in that vein soon.

Thanks for the spirited conversation,

Paul

Anyway, here’s what’s on my current playlist. This should give you an idea of where I fall on the musical spectrum:

The Police
Big Bang
Guster
Spoon
Kings of Leon
The Khrusty Brothers
The Raconteurs
Jeff Buckley

And, if you think Water Deep is a contrived band you’re crazy. I could go and download some live Dead concert and not “get it”. Downloads of live shows are not good indicators of what actually happens at a live show. You’re smart enough to know that.

Paul, this post goes hand in glove with your tendancy to overstate your point and be a contrarian. I’ve given you tons of examples of Christian artists who have talent and display it regularly. You’ve responded with “Well, they’re not as good as The Greatful Dead.” OK, ya got me there.

Not sure how to continue with this thread. We disagree on a very subjective issue that you have made into a very black and white issue. There are some Christian artists I like. Sue me.

Let me summarize your points: Nobody else on this blog knows what good music is except Paul. The Greatful Dead are the greatest band ever. If a band is influenced by other musicians, they are copy cats. God couldn’t possibly create a Christian musician with some talent.

Does that about sum it up?

I think you missed my point in mentioning foreigner or REO Speedwagon. They were absolutely awful and contrived bands that seemed like they were crafted by consensus as opposed to musical thought.

You know, like the exact same thing that you hear when you listen to Third Day, Petra or Stryper.

I’ve heard about Water Deep before. I downloaded a couple of shows off of archive.org, and was not at all impressed. Again, I heard contrived band trying to sound like such and such sound to reach the hippies.

Want to hear what that stuff is supposed to sound like? Check out Anthem of the Sun by the Grateful Dead. If the Grateful Dead and sarcasm ever show up in the same paragraph again, it’s because you’ve got screws loose.

As for Trip Wamsley, if he sounds like Michael Manring, I’m in. And I will definitely check out those other bands. Because I would rather be listening to more Christian music.

Try this… Go online and listen to Water Deep. Then go online and listen to Trip Wamsley. Then go online and listen to The Myriad. Then go online and listen to Woven Hand. Pedro the Lion, Sufjan Stevens, David Wilcox, U2, The Fray, Mat Kearney, PFR, etc, are fantastic bands and solo artists with amazing musical and lyrical content.

Look, I’m not your typical CCM fan. As a matter of fact, my ipod doesn’t have any Stephen Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Mercy Me or Third Day on it. I think that stuff is junk too. All I’m saying is that you can’t throw all of it out as horrible. There are some real “Christian” treasures out there. They’re no Foreigner of Grateful Dead, but they are good stuff (ahh, sarcasm).

You should really like some of that Water Deep stuff. If you want to hear “odd rhythms” and “multi-part compositions”, this is a really cool band. Trip Wamsley will blow your mind. He’s a solo bass artist, and he’s in the same league as a Michael Manring. Seriously, this guy is one of the best in the world. Yep, he’s a Christian, and he talks openly about it at his shows. He’s also crazy… seriously, this dude is nuts.

Anyway, I hope you’ll give some of these a shot. They’re not your typical CCM junk. Enjoy!

I wish that I didn’t have to beat the “Christian Rock Sucks” drum so loudly. However, with the exception of some Caedmon’s Call (the female vocalist really needs to sell insurance instead) and some Burlap to Cashmere. Virtually everything else I’ve heard sold in a Christian bookstore is terrible. Making things worse are the following problems:

1) Fear of being edgy: sure Caedmon’s Call and Burlap to Cashmere have their moments, but I can name plenty of artists that sound like either of them. Yes, it’s nice to hear chick rock with God-centered lyrics, but when am I going to hear a Christian band do something fresh? U2 came the closest, and Boy came out what, 30 years ago? And they’re not exactly in the same camp as a CC in the first place. In other words, where’s the Christian Tool, Radiohead or My Bloody Valentine?

2) I swear that Christian musicians are scared of getting too good. It would explain so, so, so, so, so much. It would explain why I’ve never heard great harmonic sense from any of these bands. It would explain why you never hear these bands work in odd rhythms. It would explain why these bands rarely, if ever play multi-part compositions, and it would explain why I’ve never heard one that can improvise. And I’ve really never heard one that can kick back and groove.

In other words, no matter how great the message is, if it’s unlistenable, it’s pointless. And most of the CCM stuff that’s out there is just that. Pointless. And even right here, on this little site, I’ve asked if there’s any great Christian music that I’m missing, nobody’s ever said anything. And if the very people who listen to the stuff can’t recommend it, then, sir, you have no right to talk about relevance.

I think you’re beating the old “Christian music sucks” drum a little too hard. There have always been great Christian musicians. As much as it pains me to say this, some of that old Petra music was really good music (The Greg Voltz stuff). There have been some killer Christian bands like Burlap to Cashmere and PFR. Caedmon’s Call, Jars of Clay (the old school stuff and some of the newer stuff), Sixpence None the Richer, Plumb (the early stuff), and others threw out some amazing stuff that wasn’t copy cat stuff but original and stand alone. Mat Kearney and Robbie Seay are putting out a lot of good music these days, as are others.

The only difference is that many of these artists signed with exclusively Christian labels, and secular stations stayed away from them. They didn’t get the air play or exposure because of their label, not their music. So, while I agree with you that there is a ton of very horrible Christian music, I disagree that there are very few good Christian musicians. The funny thing is that most popular musicians got their start in church.

Ultimately, Christian music is like secular music. There are so many terrible secular acts that I can’t even begin to name them all. There are people who get tons of secular air play who have little to no talent. Perhaps there are too few talented secular musicians as well?

BTW – I hate the Christian/secular distinction. You can be a Christian who plays music, but I’m not sure about there being “Christian” music. If a song speaks about the depravity of man, can’t it also glorify the justice of God? Isn’t that a Christian concept? Isn’t it really about your worldview more than about a label you put on your music? I think so.

Did you write about Foreigner and REO Speedwagon or was I dreaming when I read that? Very relevant examples, Paul!

or, in an attempt to be relevant, some of these bands just ape what the secular world is doing. The end result is that there are plenty of Christian Foreigners and REO Speedwagons, and there are virtually no Christian Grateful Deads or Velvet Undergrounds.

And that’s a shame. Because that means that for the most part, not only are these bands not reaching the secular market that needs to hear the message, but they’re not even giving themselves the chance to be spiritually edifying to those who could use a little of that too.

I think there is a balance. Christians need to show the secular world their “human” side also. We get angry at God. Maybe we don’t want to praise him. We SHOULD (I totally agree with you), but we don’t really want to. What if I just want to write a song about how awesome the vacation I just had was, or how I had a really bad day on the freeway on my drive home? You know God is with you, people should know you’re a Christian, but does God need to be specifically mentioned in every song? I don’t know. Maybe He does. I just don’t think we should not listen to another Christian’s song, or tell them they’re not a Christian musician just becuase 1 or 2 songs didn’t happen to mention Christ.

A Christian musician John Fischer once said, “We don’t need more Christian musicians, we need more Christians in the music business.” The only way to get it all to change and to get the music to the secular world might be by having a few songs that don’t specifically talk about Christ. If someone listens to those, decides they like your sound and what you’re saying and listen to the rest of the CD where you talk about the awesomeness of God then isn’t it all worth it? Even if 1 person is reached?

I also think that if all your songs are about the same thing it seems disingenuous and people will think you’re just doing it because you’re a Christian musician and you don’t want to upset anyone. If you’ve happened to reach the secular world with 1 CD, you’ll lose them on the 2nd because it will all be the same stuff.

Jesus said it himself when he ate with the tax collectors and sinners. He’s not here to save the righteous. We should be reaching out to the unrighteous with our music and we’re not going to do that if every song is about the same thing. The secular world will not understand and they’ll get bored of it and move on to something else.

I hope I’m making some sense…

Thanks for the comments. I posted a clarification (see above) on the points he brought up. Sorry I wasn’t clear in my initial post.

Thanks again,
Denny