Your language of “true believers” seems a bit funny to me. What is a true believer? How would you define a true believer?

Lets just say, little Timmy at the age of 10 accepts Christ, however after High School Timmy never stepped foot back into a Church. He still believes, but he is not participating in a Church community. Is Timmy a true believer?

To me the distinction of a “true” or “false” believer is too concrete.

False-Christians WILL fall away and not return…whether it be due to persecutuion, trials, cares of the world, etc…

The Bible does make threats to our salvation. I believe God thru the Holy Spirit uses these threats to keep His true Christians in the faith.

Yes God does wants us to persevere in faith!

However we get to chose the path. I am not going to judge who will enter the gates or who will not enter the gates. I believe if we are honestly falling forwards towards our Heavenly Father then there will be no issues.

The only measurement we have to judge individuals’ faith is if they believe. If they believe, then we all should be seeing them in Heaven.

I believe God does desire for all of us to be saved. Everyone has the option to live their life in love.

Your losing salvation question is a great question and I am not sure if I am ready to answer that one. What do you think?

Does God intend for you to persevere in the faith and you may choose to not believe any more and thus perish in hell forever?

Are you saying that God intends for us to be saved (for the Bible says that only those who persevere to the end will be saved) but we may lose our salvation due to wrong choices?

You observation is correct. I am arguing that God tested Job’s character to see what he is made of.

God ultimately knew how the Job narrative was going to end up. Job had the possibility not to chose God, but he did.

You chose to study, pay attention, and be engaged in class in order for you to pass your test. However, there were probably some other students in your class who failed the test. Essentially they chose not to study. I highly doubt God wanted your other classmates to fail. God knew that some would fail, but he did not know who would chose to fail.

God wants the best path for everyone however there is freedom for each individual. Bascically, you create your own adventure and God knows the final chapters. Does this undermine God knowledge? No, not at all. It takes a greater God to steer a world populated with free agents than it does to steer a world of pre-programmed automatons.

Job during his test chose God. Like you, he chose to do his homework. Job’s character was confirmed through his test.

You are right the Scriptures are here to test and reproof us, but after we pass a test does not mean we will pass the next one.

The fact that God intended a course of action for Job did not guarantee that it would come about.

Mlm thanks for the post.

In His Grip,
jeremy

Some interesting thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to share them. One question: You make it sound like God tested Job’s character because God wanted to see what Job was made of. Seems to me that the All-knowing God would already know what Job is made of, and therefore there’d be no need to test him…unless the test was for someone else’s benefit, namely Job’s. (Or as some argue, Satan, because he and God had a bet going.)

But as I recall all the “tests” I’ve had in my long years as a student, not one involved calamity or sickness and disease. Rather, there were written or oral exams that required my to reveal what I knew. In all cases, I had been taught lesson after lesson on the subject, so that the test would hopefully reveal that I had been paying attenting in class, ddoing my homework, and learning all along. In many cases, I was told by my instructors *exactly* what would be on the test. If not exactly, at least I knew which chapters or area of expertise I would be tested in.

These “cosmic pop quizzes” people ascribe to God are silly in my opinion. The Bible itself tells us that it (the Scriptures) have been given to test, teach, rebuke, train, etc. God already knows what we know. He doesn’t need to test us. But when the inevitable tests of this world arise, then WE find out what we’re made of and what we still desperately need to learn.

The point referencing Job 42:10-11, post 39, is a great Biblical example, however this is only one of the many Biblical examples indicating God inflicted trouble onto his people. More importantly, we need to look at this verse in light of the other Scriptures that are for and against the notions webbed in Job 42.

1. There may be truth that the Lord may have have allowed the evil to overtake Job. This verse is one instance of one individuals life who is following Yahweh. That is the beauty of reading about great Biblical characters because we can to see a perspective on how God interacts with that individuals life and what the fruits are. Yahweh has a very unique and dynamic relationship with Job , therefore Yahweh does some unique and dynamics things to Job.

2. If we consider the theology that is transpiring in Job 42, then it would be fair to read other verses in contrast with 42.
Here are a few verses in contrast:
Luke 4.6–the famous temptation narrative where the Devil tempts Jesus by offering Him ownership of the world. According to Luke, the devil is the king of this earthly dome. If the devil is handing over his authority to Jesus in this temptation pass, then maybe this does imply that the devil is the king and rule of this world??
Ephesians 6–Paul is pretty persuasive we need to put on our fighting suites and fight the good fight because we are at battle here on earth.
James 3.15–James makes a reference of earthly things that are from the devil. This verse also implies the earth is ruled by this satan guy.
Revelations 12.9–John is giving a depiction of how this ancient serpent leads the world astray.

Essentially these few examples identify a theme that the Devil is the king of this earthly dome.

3. The fact that the Lord inflicted pain onto Job does not discredit the notion that the devil is the boss here on earth. In my opinion I feel this is a special case of how Yahweh intervenes Himself into Job’s life. The question is: does this Job account run try with the Spirit of both the old and new testament? The Job narrative is a great story of an individual who gets tested by God, but can we build a theology off of this account of one man’s life? This is why it is essential to contest ideas stemmed from certain narratives through the entire OT and NT, before making any “thus says the Lord” theologies.

4. Lets be honest…….The Bible is full of inconsistencies. For heaven sakes, look at Paul. He says one thing one minute and a completely different thing another minute. We are missing pieces of the NT, namely the end of Mark and John 4. Luther wanted to throw out the book of James. My point is that the Bible is in fact the inspired Word of God, but there is some ambiguity to the text. The fact that in Job 42 the Lord tested Job is okay. This does not debunk any theology or the Character of God.
The Bible has many cases when it is prescriptive and descriptive. Prescriptive means that this is the Truth!! Thus say the Lord. For examples, The 10 commandments. However, descriptive means the Bible gives account of certain aspect’s within the God story. Essentially it is a depiction of that cultural context. The letter/narrative is describing what is happening in that given situation. For example:
NAU 1 Timothy 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

5. The fact that God tests Job is an another example that God presently interacts with His creation. God is tested Job to investigate his character and how he would respond. In a way, there was a risk that Job would not respond to this test. There was an openness to how Job was going to react to the tests put in front of him. Basically, the Job 42 verse is a great example of how God interacts with His creation.

In my attempt to argue that the devil is the king of this world, it is imperative to see that Job 42 does not hurt this argument but actually better illustrate that God is a God of interaction.

In His Grip,
Jeremy

I’ve got another post on this topic coming on Monday morning.

Thanks,
Denny