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	<title>Comments on: Families Together at Sunday Worship</title>
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		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33937</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33937</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mason,

Perhaps following resurrection Sunday we can continue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mason,</p>
<p>Perhaps following resurrection Sunday we can continue.</p>
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		<title>By: Mason Beecroft</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33935</link>
		<dc:creator>Mason Beecroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33935</guid>
		<description>Benjamin,
Well, I was not being glib about possessing a wicked, sinful heart. I am thoroughly Augustinian/Lutheran in my anthropology, believing it to be scriptural. I don&#039;t think it is excessively negative, only honest as well as biblical.

Possessing Word and Sacrament does not give give a &quot;double portion&quot; of grace, but communicates the same grace of Jesus Christ through different means.  This is an important qualification. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe that the good news just happens to come through the Word preached; the Word joined to Water in Holy Baptism; the Word spoken in the mutual consolation of Christian brethren; and the Word joined to bread and wine, the body and blood. Christ comes to His people over and over in means He instituted so we can hear His certain words of redemption and salvation. We don&#039;t possess more or less of the Gospel of Christ. All Christians possess the same Christ and His Gospel.

Now, with reference to the talk of abundant life and daily walk and such, I would qualify that the Christian remains both sinner and saint this side of eternal life. Paul considered himself to be &quot;chief of sinners&quot; at the end of his life. And I am of the opinion that the struggle of Romans 7 is descriptive of the Christian life.

For Lutherans, the entire Christian life is one born of repentance (Thesis 1 of the 95). An examination of self according to God&#039;s requirements draws us constantly back to Christ and His grace. This breeds humility and contentment in Christ, not a piety that finds comfort in looking for a &quot;real difference&quot; or &quot;growth&quot; or &quot;victory&quot; or &quot;abundance&quot;. I dare not examine myself to find comfort or consolation of God&#039;s work. I may not be the *&amp;^*@#$ I was, but I am still not good enough. I examine myself and I run to Christ time and again to find His grace and mercy. I look to Christ always and there in the cradle, on the cross, and at the empty tomb I know God&#039;s disposition toward me. This Gospel is God&#039;s power not only for my salvation, but also for my growth in grace.

When I was an evangelical, the burden of its narcissistic and myopic piety was almost overwhelming. I found that it typically bred either a self-righteousness (look at how free I am from the flesh in comparison to...) or a self-loathing (wow, if I am honest with myself, I am still a desperate sinner and it doesn&#039;t seem to matter how many quiet-times I have or Christian T-shirts I own). In other words, the Christian life is about Christ and not our constant strivings, manipulations, pretenses, and efforts.

You may look at me and consider me to be quite impious in a number of areas (the issue of gross public immorality is another discussion). I know that I am even more impious than I appear! In other areas you might consider me to be charitable, kind, and gracious. I know that I often act in such ways to meet expectations of others or with sinful motivations. Regardless of your criteria for evaluation or appearances, I am still more sinful than I imagine and yet Christ&#039;s forgiveness blots out my transgressions and iniquities. Thankfully, Christ keeps His promise to be with us always and gives His gifts of grace in Word and Sacrament so that the good work He began will be completed. Ultimately, my life is hid with Christ and the fruit of His Spirit matures in its time. I need not pretend otherwise, although it often helps me feel better about myself! 

I&#039;d love to continue this conversation on Lutheran faith and piety, but it is Holy Week and I am writing homilies and preparing for five different liturgies that start on Thursday. Perhaps we can continue after Easter?
Pax-
+Mason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin,<br />
Well, I was not being glib about possessing a wicked, sinful heart. I am thoroughly Augustinian/Lutheran in my anthropology, believing it to be scriptural. I don&#8217;t think it is excessively negative, only honest as well as biblical.</p>
<p>Possessing Word and Sacrament does not give give a &#8220;double portion&#8221; of grace, but communicates the same grace of Jesus Christ through different means.  This is an important qualification. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe that the good news just happens to come through the Word preached; the Word joined to Water in Holy Baptism; the Word spoken in the mutual consolation of Christian brethren; and the Word joined to bread and wine, the body and blood. Christ comes to His people over and over in means He instituted so we can hear His certain words of redemption and salvation. We don&#8217;t possess more or less of the Gospel of Christ. All Christians possess the same Christ and His Gospel.</p>
<p>Now, with reference to the talk of abundant life and daily walk and such, I would qualify that the Christian remains both sinner and saint this side of eternal life. Paul considered himself to be &#8220;chief of sinners&#8221; at the end of his life. And I am of the opinion that the struggle of Romans 7 is descriptive of the Christian life.</p>
<p>For Lutherans, the entire Christian life is one born of repentance (Thesis 1 of the 95). An examination of self according to God&#8217;s requirements draws us constantly back to Christ and His grace. This breeds humility and contentment in Christ, not a piety that finds comfort in looking for a &#8220;real difference&#8221; or &#8220;growth&#8221; or &#8220;victory&#8221; or &#8220;abundance&#8221;. I dare not examine myself to find comfort or consolation of God&#8217;s work. I may not be the *&amp;^*@#$ I was, but I am still not good enough. I examine myself and I run to Christ time and again to find His grace and mercy. I look to Christ always and there in the cradle, on the cross, and at the empty tomb I know God&#8217;s disposition toward me. This Gospel is God&#8217;s power not only for my salvation, but also for my growth in grace.</p>
<p>When I was an evangelical, the burden of its narcissistic and myopic piety was almost overwhelming. I found that it typically bred either a self-righteousness (look at how free I am from the flesh in comparison to&#8230;) or a self-loathing (wow, if I am honest with myself, I am still a desperate sinner and it doesn&#8217;t seem to matter how many quiet-times I have or Christian T-shirts I own). In other words, the Christian life is about Christ and not our constant strivings, manipulations, pretenses, and efforts.</p>
<p>You may look at me and consider me to be quite impious in a number of areas (the issue of gross public immorality is another discussion). I know that I am even more impious than I appear! In other areas you might consider me to be charitable, kind, and gracious. I know that I often act in such ways to meet expectations of others or with sinful motivations. Regardless of your criteria for evaluation or appearances, I am still more sinful than I imagine and yet Christ&#8217;s forgiveness blots out my transgressions and iniquities. Thankfully, Christ keeps His promise to be with us always and gives His gifts of grace in Word and Sacrament so that the good work He began will be completed. Ultimately, my life is hid with Christ and the fruit of His Spirit matures in its time. I need not pretend otherwise, although it often helps me feel better about myself! </p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to continue this conversation on Lutheran faith and piety, but it is Holy Week and I am writing homilies and preparing for five different liturgies that start on Thursday. Perhaps we can continue after Easter?<br />
Pax-<br />
+Mason</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33896</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33896</guid>
		<description>Mason,

I just read your comments from a different post. You said-

&quot;Now I know what happened to some of my posts on other discussions! I thought I made a computer error, but it was my wicked, sinful heart.&quot;

Maybe you were not being serious. But, if you were, it would seem that your receiving grace from both word and sacrament hasn&#039;t enabled you to experience any greater freedom from the flesh than the rest of us who only receive grace from the word preached. This leads me to question the reality of your understanding of Christ&#039;s sacraments from an experiential/practical level.

It&#039;s like a Pentecostal who claims the sign gifts are still active today, but have personally never healed, nor seen an individual healed as they were in the New Testament (lame hands made like new; blind receiving sight; lame made to walk). Wouldn&#039;t it be great if this said individual with the gift of healing (used just like any other gift), would go to a local hospital and clear it out. Still waiting on that one.

How has your double portion of grace, word and sacrament, made a real difference in your daily walk. Are you enjoying more of the abundant life than the rest of us? How would we see that reality???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mason,</p>
<p>I just read your comments from a different post. You said-</p>
<p>&#8220;Now I know what happened to some of my posts on other discussions! I thought I made a computer error, but it was my wicked, sinful heart.&#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe you were not being serious. But, if you were, it would seem that your receiving grace from both word and sacrament hasn&#8217;t enabled you to experience any greater freedom from the flesh than the rest of us who only receive grace from the word preached. This leads me to question the reality of your understanding of Christ&#8217;s sacraments from an experiential/practical level.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like a Pentecostal who claims the sign gifts are still active today, but have personally never healed, nor seen an individual healed as they were in the New Testament (lame hands made like new; blind receiving sight; lame made to walk). Wouldn&#8217;t it be great if this said individual with the gift of healing (used just like any other gift), would go to a local hospital and clear it out. Still waiting on that one.</p>
<p>How has your double portion of grace, word and sacrament, made a real difference in your daily walk. Are you enjoying more of the abundant life than the rest of us? How would we see that reality???</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33895</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33895</guid>
		<description>Mason,

Thanks for giving the confessional Lutheran perspective. I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. 

From your answer, my practice of the Lord&#039;s Table avails me nothing of Christ&#039;s grace through His prescribed institution. In that the benefits of His sacramental presence is forfeited, I&#039;m left wondering how your life or the life of your parishioners is more like Christ than those of us who only receive grace through the word preached. It seems that Lutherans and others who receive Christ&#039;s grace through word and sacrament both, having thus a double blessing of grace, compared to us only receiving grace through the word, would in essence have doubly blessed lives. 

Q: In you experience, would you say confessional Lutherans, by the way they live their lives, reflect the added benefits of grace received through both word and sacrament?

In John 10:10 Jesus said &quot;I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.&quot; 
In your opinion are Lutherans experiencing more of the abundant life that Jesus came to give compared to others who have forfeited His grace through sacrament?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mason,</p>
<p>Thanks for giving the confessional Lutheran perspective. I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. </p>
<p>From your answer, my practice of the Lord&#8217;s Table avails me nothing of Christ&#8217;s grace through His prescribed institution. In that the benefits of His sacramental presence is forfeited, I&#8217;m left wondering how your life or the life of your parishioners is more like Christ than those of us who only receive grace through the word preached. It seems that Lutherans and others who receive Christ&#8217;s grace through word and sacrament both, having thus a double blessing of grace, compared to us only receiving grace through the word, would in essence have doubly blessed lives. </p>
<p>Q: In you experience, would you say confessional Lutherans, by the way they live their lives, reflect the added benefits of grace received through both word and sacrament?</p>
<p>In John 10:10 Jesus said &#8220;I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.&#8221;<br />
In your opinion are Lutherans experiencing more of the abundant life that Jesus came to give compared to others who have forfeited His grace through sacrament?</p>
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		<title>By: Mason Beecroft</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33464</link>
		<dc:creator>Mason Beecroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33464</guid>
		<description>Benjamin,
I believe Christ is present where His word is proclaimed and the Sacrament is administered according to His institution. For communities that expressly deny His presence in the Sacrament, choosing to practice according to their own institution (&quot;This represents to us...&quot; or some other commentary that would deny Jesus&#039; Word), then the benefits of His sacramental presence is forfeited. However, Christ is present in all Christian communities by the Word proclaimed- by this I mean the preaching of repentance and forgiveness of sins in His name(Luke 24), not moralistic principles culled from Scripture to be a better whatever.

In other words, the Holy Spirit uses the means of grace (Gospel in Word and Sacrament) to create, sustain, and strengthen faith. The Holy Spirit uses these Gospel means to sanctify us and keep us in the holy Christian faith.

For Osteen-like communities, Joel or whoever is there, but there can be no confidence that Jesus is present in their midst for forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation. Jesus&#039; word is absent. Jesus&#039; sacrament is absent. The ascended Christ calls such communities to repentance (cf. Rev. 2-3), even if they help people in a generic, therapeutic sense.

Hope this provides some insight into the confessional Lutheran perspective. In summary, Christ is really and actually present where His Word is proclaimed and His sacrament is administered according to His institution (&quot;Do this...&quot;, &quot;Go, therefore...&quot;, &quot;Repentance and forgiveness...&quot;).
Blessings,
+Mason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin,<br />
I believe Christ is present where His word is proclaimed and the Sacrament is administered according to His institution. For communities that expressly deny His presence in the Sacrament, choosing to practice according to their own institution (&#8220;This represents to us&#8230;&#8221; or some other commentary that would deny Jesus&#8217; Word), then the benefits of His sacramental presence is forfeited. However, Christ is present in all Christian communities by the Word proclaimed- by this I mean the preaching of repentance and forgiveness of sins in His name(Luke 24), not moralistic principles culled from Scripture to be a better whatever.</p>
<p>In other words, the Holy Spirit uses the means of grace (Gospel in Word and Sacrament) to create, sustain, and strengthen faith. The Holy Spirit uses these Gospel means to sanctify us and keep us in the holy Christian faith.</p>
<p>For Osteen-like communities, Joel or whoever is there, but there can be no confidence that Jesus is present in their midst for forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation. Jesus&#8217; word is absent. Jesus&#8217; sacrament is absent. The ascended Christ calls such communities to repentance (cf. Rev. 2-3), even if they help people in a generic, therapeutic sense.</p>
<p>Hope this provides some insight into the confessional Lutheran perspective. In summary, Christ is really and actually present where His Word is proclaimed and His sacrament is administered according to His institution (&#8220;Do this&#8230;&#8221;, &#8220;Go, therefore&#8230;&#8221;, &#8220;Repentance and forgiveness&#8230;&#8221;).<br />
Blessings,<br />
+Mason</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33423</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33423</guid>
		<description>Voddie Baucham has some excellent sermons available by podcast on this topic.  He is ardently opposed to &quot;children&#039;s church&quot; and &quot;youth services,&quot; or at least under the contemporary paradigm of parents pawning their kids off to some young kid pastor who doesn&#039;t even have children of his own.  

I think the bottom line is parents ought to be more involved in their children&#039;s spiritual formation and there is definitely a correlation between the contemporary model and the droves of college aged kids leaving the faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Voddie Baucham has some excellent sermons available by podcast on this topic.  He is ardently opposed to &#8220;children&#8217;s church&#8221; and &#8220;youth services,&#8221; or at least under the contemporary paradigm of parents pawning their kids off to some young kid pastor who doesn&#8217;t even have children of his own.  </p>
<p>I think the bottom line is parents ought to be more involved in their children&#8217;s spiritual formation and there is definitely a correlation between the contemporary model and the droves of college aged kids leaving the faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33422</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33422</guid>
		<description>Mason,

Thanks for the reply.

Another question: Do you believe Christ&#039;s sacramental presence among His people to be real and actual in non-Lutheran communities of faith, even though they perceive it to only be symbolically present?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mason,</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply.</p>
<p>Another question: Do you believe Christ&#8217;s sacramental presence among His people to be real and actual in non-Lutheran communities of faith, even though they perceive it to only be symbolically present?</p>
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		<title>By: Mason Beecroft</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33361</link>
		<dc:creator>Mason Beecroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33361</guid>
		<description>Benjamin, 
I would not understand the Mass as an actual crucifixion as if for the first time. But I would understand it as Christ&#039;s true presence in the bread and wine, His Body and Blood by the power of the Word joined to the elements. He gives us the benefits of His death and resurrection-forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation.

&quot;Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation (koinonia, communion) in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread we break a participation (koinonia, communion) in the body of Christ?&quot; (1 Cor. 10:16). Christ&#039;s sacramental presence among His people is real and actual, not psychological or emotional. By His Word joined to the elements of His institution, He fulfills His promise to be with us always to the very end of the age. He is not far off in protestant heaven, but with His people through the mysteries of the faith.

At least this is a general description of the Lutheran understanding. At my blog I will post my Palmarum Sunday sermon later in the week, which may clarify the &quot;would have to die&quot; language. 
Blessings in Christ,
+Mason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin,<br />
I would not understand the Mass as an actual crucifixion as if for the first time. But I would understand it as Christ&#8217;s true presence in the bread and wine, His Body and Blood by the power of the Word joined to the elements. He gives us the benefits of His death and resurrection-forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation.</p>
<p>&#8220;Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation (koinonia, communion) in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread we break a participation (koinonia, communion) in the body of Christ?&#8221; (1 Cor. 10:16). Christ&#8217;s sacramental presence among His people is real and actual, not psychological or emotional. By His Word joined to the elements of His institution, He fulfills His promise to be with us always to the very end of the age. He is not far off in protestant heaven, but with His people through the mysteries of the faith.</p>
<p>At least this is a general description of the Lutheran understanding. At my blog I will post my Palmarum Sunday sermon later in the week, which may clarify the &#8220;would have to die&#8221; language.<br />
Blessings in Christ,<br />
+Mason</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33318</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33318</guid>
		<description>Mason,

You said, &quot;A good teacher always encouraged me to respond to a question, â€œWhy do you want to know?â€ 

My question: &#039;Does your Hebrew understanding of remembrance (pulling past, present and future all together) allow you to view the Mass as an actual crucifixion of Christ as if for the first time? Thus allowing the language, &#039;would have to die&#039; to have actual/real meaning?

If it&#039;s not an actual crucifixion, how is it more than psychological or emotional worship?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mason,</p>
<p>You said, &#8220;A good teacher always encouraged me to respond to a question, â€œWhy do you want to know?â€ </p>
<p>My question: &#8216;Does your Hebrew understanding of remembrance (pulling past, present and future all together) allow you to view the Mass as an actual crucifixion of Christ as if for the first time? Thus allowing the language, &#8216;would have to die&#8217; to have actual/real meaning?</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s not an actual crucifixion, how is it more than psychological or emotional worship?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jada Bown Swanson</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/families-together-at-sunday-worship/#comment-33292</link>
		<dc:creator>Jada Bown Swanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 03:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1483#comment-33292</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the typos. I do know how to spell, it is late. That&#039;s my excuse! I just got home from church!:):):)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the typos. I do know how to spell, it is late. That&#8217;s my excuse! I just got home from church!:):):)</p>
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