I’m sorry to hear about your grandfather. You and your family are in my prayers.

I am way too busy right now to get into a projected back and forth, so I will answer once and probably not be back to be the overly emotional, bitter, etc, etc, etc liberal.

1) Darius in #6: as you will see throughout my comments directed at you, we agree more than you think. I agree that there ARE pro-choice candidates and there are pro-abortion candidates. And trust me, after hearing the comment about how he wouldn’t want his daughters burdened with an unwanted pregnancy, it started making me uncomfortable to vote for him. Honestly, at this point, it’s probably more likely that I’ll vote Green Party or Socialist Party before I vote for Obama. Either way, between the xenophobia and racism that is rampant in America, there’s no way that Obama wins anyway, so enjoy four years of McCain ruining the country even more.

2) Matt in #7: don’t look at McCain’s rhetoric or how his campaign advisors spin him, look at his voting record. Save for a small number of votes (stem cells, McCain/Feingold and a handful of others), his voting record is about as conservative as it gets.

3) Darius in #8: please read everything before commenting on something. The quote you snipped was directly aimed at Matt in #4: “Don’t attack Denny or any other believer, it is unbiblical.”

If it’s unbiblical, then a whole bunch of folks on the right side of the aisle have a whole bunch of repenting to do. However, I know that Paul told us to rebuke those who state a different gospel than what was given to us in the four accounts of the gospel.

4) Darius in #9: I was referring to the Center for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, NOT Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Sheesh.

5) Ted in #10: I agree. However, I think that once the votes and referendums play out, if they’re given a chance to (and I highly doubt that they really will), I tend to think that the only states that will ban abortion will be a handful of states in the deep south and Utah. I would like to be wrong in that regard, but given the nationwide polling numbers regarding voters takes on the pro-choice/pro-life divide, it’s usually 60-65% pro-choice, 30-35% pro-life. Numbers skewed like that are going to make any politician think twice about actually going forward with a bill.

6) Darius in #12: Darius, I think you make a common mistake that is all too easy to make in very conservative parts of the country. Let’s look at what you call the root causes of abortion…

“the legalization of abortion (laws do make a difference in the views of a society)”

agreed, but now we have to deal with the fact that pandora’s box has been opened. Overturning Roe v. Wade doesn’t close the box, it only keeps it open less widely. Now we have to look at this from a completely different angle than we would have prior to 1973.

“the cultural view that babies are a curse”

Agreed. This is a problem. But unless there’s a crisis pregnancy center on every corner, and an adoptive couple ready for every unwanted child, that view will continue unabated. That doesn’t make it right, but it is the truth.

“the cultural idea that sex should be enjoyed with no responsibilities”

This isn’t exactly a new idea. David did it, one of David’s sons did it to his half sister, and need I remind you about ancient Greece or Rome? Christians don’t need to capitulate to this view, but they certainly need to understand that it’s the view of most in the secular world and a much bigger portion of the Christian world than any of us wants to admit.

The problem is, Darius, with yours and others’ comments on this subject is that you think you can reach non-Christians with a Christian world view. At this point, especially in America, where the Christian point of view can be found anywhere and everywhere, the people that aren’t being reached aren’t going to be reached. And those are the people having the unattached sex, and those are the people that need to hear about birth control, abstinence for secular reasons and generally how to not get pregnant in the first place.

“the cultural belief that babies (and mentally and physically handicapped people) have less worth than a “normal” educated human adult.”

We agree completely here.

“the worldview that humans are of no greater worth than a mosquito and that this life is all there is, and general moral poverty.”

The problem here is that this is an all or nothing scenario. Either all life is worthy, at which point, you chuck the death penalty and only go to war when attacked (or get war declared upon you as was the case w/Germany in WWII), or no life is worthy, at which point, you might as well go to Iraq and incite a civil war. We as Christians CANNOT have it both ways.

7) Mark Gibson in #15: I might very well be a sounding board for liberal bumper stickers, but at that point, you are nothing less than my counterpart on the right, sir.

re: NAFTA response…I will get to it when I have time. I work a day job, I work a night job, I have a wife, a kid and a dog and my grandfather just passed. Telling you why NAFTA is a bad idea just is not on the top of my list of responsibilities at the moment.

Darius in 20 & 21: I’m sorry, but this line from Denny…”…For more on evangelicals who no longer prioritize defending the unborn…” is (a) jive, (b) in poor taste, and (c) just as uncivil as anything I’ve written. Sorry, that’s the way I see it. Saying that there are lots of fish to fry is NOT a bad thing.

9) Darius in 24 & 25: I tire of your pointless shots on liberalism. Does it fail? Sometimes. So does capitalism. And when capitalism fails, it hurts a lot more people than when liberalism fails.

We can agree that actual communism is as much of a pipe dream as libertarianism, and that applied communism is a dismal failure. But countries like Germany, Japan and to a lesser extent, Canada, seem like they’re doing alright. And strangely, I’ve never heard a Canadian complain about their healthcare system.

I think that covers everything. Feel free to flame away, as I won’t be around to defend myself.

Two, what does fighting poverty at the federal and state (government) level look like to you? Is capitalism a Biblical ideal, or something closer to socialism? I would say that to truly love the poor would be to enable them to become unpoor. Socialism and welfare does the opposite, holding people in poverty for generations by promoting a lack of responsibility and work ethic. It also promotes a lack of charitability in the wealthy, by forcibly stealing their money and redistributing it to the poor. Meanwhile, capitalism BY ITS VERY NATURE promotes a sense that each man is responsible for himself alone and if he is willing to work, he can rise in life. Socialism says that people are cogs in the machine of class warfare that keeps them down, whereas capitalism accepts the truth that man is usually what he makes of himself.

I understand the appeal of socialism, because it allows people to think they are actually DOING something to help others, while the gears of capitalism pretty much operates unmanned, so to speak. Unfortunately, socialism has been proven fatally flawed on numerous occasions in the last 100 years.

I have been a reader since your response to Greg Boyd on Piper and the bridge in Minn. Though there are a lot of things that I disagree with you on, I am grateful that your articles at least make me think about my own beliefs.

In response to this post, I have trouble accepting that “abortion and marriage as transcendent moral values.” I don’t see how that can be supported in the Bible over things like “poverty, [or] the environment.” Jesus states that the most important things are Love God and Love others. I don’t understand how we then raise marriage and abortion to a pedestal while other things like war and poverty are beneath them. One of the common themes of Jesus’ was take care of the poor. Thanks for the discussion.

it is essential you vent your frustrations. welcome to the denny burk show.

greg i seriously laughed out loud for 2 minutes regarding your comment.