Comments on: David Dockery’s Southern Baptist Consensus and Renewal http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/ A commentary on theology, politics, and culture Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:07:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bradley Cochran http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38065 Bradley Cochran Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:26:22 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38065 R.V. Neste, I would agree. If you compare our generation to some other generations of Christians, ours does not seem to have as big an awareness or appreciation for of certain "gospel" truths (in a broad sense). It is the essentials of the gospel, however, that shape the heart and soul of all Christian identity and belief. Therefore, it seems (to me at least), that one can have a great lack of awareness of theological tradition and exegetical insight (relatively speaking), yet at the same time be quite acutely aware of their essential identity in Christ and their core beliefs as Christians. For this reason, to say "they don't know who they are or what they believe" without further clarification *appears* to lack appreciation and recognition that comes de facto by being a Christian. Mabye we could say that a lot of Christians who have joned Baptist churches, and a lot of Baptist Churches, could greatly benifit from theological education and more insight into the gospel. On this point, I would actually say it stronger: ALL problems could be seen, in one way or another (directly or indirectly) as a failure to have a whole-hearted grasp and appreciation of all the implications of the gospel. Bradley R.V. Neste,

I would agree. If you compare our generation to some other generations of Christians, ours does not seem to have as big an awareness or appreciation for of certain “gospel” truths (in a broad sense). It is the essentials of the gospel, however, that shape the heart and soul of all Christian identity and belief. Therefore, it seems (to me at least), that one can have a great lack of awareness of theological tradition and exegetical insight (relatively speaking), yet at the same time be quite acutely aware of their essential identity in Christ and their core beliefs as Christians.

For this reason, to say “they don’t know who they are or what they believe” without further clarification *appears* to lack appreciation and recognition that comes de facto by being a Christian. Mabye we could say that a lot of Christians who have joned Baptist churches, and a lot of Baptist Churches, could greatly benifit from theological education and more insight into the gospel. On this point, I would actually say it stronger: ALL problems could be seen, in one way or another (directly or indirectly) as a failure to have a whole-hearted grasp and appreciation of all the implications of the gospel.

Bradley

]]> By: Ray Van Neste http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38049 Ray Van Neste Sun, 01 Jun 2008 04:37:14 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38049 Robert, Dockery has clearly stated he is not a 5 point Calvinist. I don't think that bears on this discussion one way or the other, however. Bradley, Of course none of us have it figured out entirely. My point is that the current malaise of the American evangelical church, can be traced, I think, not to a lack of this or that program or this or that special emphasis, but a lack of depth in our understanding and appreciation of the gospel. None of us have fully arrived but there are plenty of times in the history of the church when it was more robust than is our portion of it right now. Robert,
Dockery has clearly stated he is not a 5 point Calvinist. I don’t think that bears on this discussion one way or the other, however.

Bradley,
Of course none of us have it figured out entirely. My point is that the current malaise of the American evangelical church, can be traced, I think, not to a lack of this or that program or this or that special emphasis, but a lack of depth in our understanding and appreciation of the gospel.
None of us have fully arrived but there are plenty of times in the history of the church when it was more robust than is our portion of it right now.

]]> By: Bradley Cochran http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38048 Bradley Cochran Sun, 01 Jun 2008 04:29:37 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38048 R. V. Neste, I would be willing to bet that all Christians, including myself and you too, are not understanding the full implications of the gospel. However, this does not mean that you and I, nor anyone else who hasn't rightly thought through all the implications of the gospel, are confused about who they are or what they believe. As I understand it, to be a Christian means you believe the basic message of the gospel, and unless the identity that automatically comes through faith in the gospel is shallow, I don't know how you could say that a Christian who beleives it could not know who they are or what they believe. They may have a lot of areas for improvement on working through the implications of that core belief in the gospel, but don't we all? R. V. Neste,

I would be willing to bet that all Christians, including myself and you too, are not understanding the full implications of the gospel. However, this does not mean that you and I, nor anyone else who hasn’t rightly thought through all the implications of the gospel, are confused about who they are or what they believe. As I understand it, to be a Christian means you believe the basic message of the gospel, and unless the identity that automatically comes through faith in the gospel is shallow, I don’t know how you could say that a Christian who beleives it could not know who they are or what they believe. They may have a lot of areas for improvement on working through the implications of that core belief in the gospel, but don’t we all?

]]> By: RobertI Masters http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38037 RobertI Masters Sat, 31 May 2008 18:20:13 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38037 Denny and Ray, For the record I think it should be noted that Dr Dockery is specifically an Amyraldian. Correct me if I am wrong. from the Southern Baptist Geneva Robert I Masters Denny and Ray,
For the record I think it should be noted that Dr Dockery is specifically an Amyraldian. Correct me if I am wrong.

from the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert I Masters

]]> By: Ray Van Neste http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38027 Ray Van Neste Sat, 31 May 2008 04:23:13 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38027 Bradley, I agree with what Denny has already said, but i would also add that many true Christians are confused about who they are and what they believe. The core problem I believe in out Baptist churches is not that we are unaware of Baptist distinctives (though that has inmportance as y'all have discussed) but is precisely that so many are unclear about the gospel and its ramifications for life. That is why we need to rally around the gospel while carrying on conversations about baptist identity but making sure the core concern is the gospel. Bradley,
I agree with what Denny has already said, but i would also add that many true Christians are confused about who they are and what they believe. The core problem I believe in out Baptist churches is not that we are unaware of Baptist distinctives (though that has inmportance as y’all have discussed) but is precisely that so many are unclear about the gospel and its ramifications for life. That is why we need to rally around the gospel while carrying on conversations about baptist identity but making sure the core concern is the gospel.

]]> By: Bradley Cochran http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38024 Bradley Cochran Sat, 31 May 2008 02:47:44 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38024 Denny, Agreed. Certain aspects of Baptist ecclesiology are important for missions. Bradley Denny,

Agreed. Certain aspects of Baptist ecclesiology are important for missions.

Bradley

]]> By: Denny Burk http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38015 Denny Burk Fri, 30 May 2008 19:02:22 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38015 Bonnie, Ha! That's hilarious! Maybe I'm the one who needs to be tutored on what it means to be a Southern Baptist. :) Bradley, I think that we probably agree. Dockery is calling for a core confessional unity around the Gospel. As Southern Baptists, however, our ability to cooperate in missions and evangelism is dependent in some respect on our shared ecclesiology. Otherwise, we would have no theological basis for planting churches. Thanks, Denny Bonnie,

Ha! That’s hilarious! Maybe I’m the one who needs to be tutored on what it means to be a Southern Baptist. :)

Bradley,

I think that we probably agree. Dockery is calling for a core confessional unity around the Gospel. As Southern Baptists, however, our ability to cooperate in missions and evangelism is dependent in some respect on our shared ecclesiology. Otherwise, we would have no theological basis for planting churches.

Thanks,
Denny

]]> By: bonnie http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38014 bonnie Fri, 30 May 2008 18:45:32 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38014 Can someone be a "lifelong" Southern Baptist? Can someone be a “lifelong” Southern Baptist?

]]> By: Bradley Cochran http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38010 Bradley Cochran Fri, 30 May 2008 18:25:21 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38010 It may be an overly critical statement to suggest that Christians who have joined Southern Baptist Churches "don't know who they are or what they beleive." We should never loose sight of the fact as Baptists, that our chief idenity ("who we are") in in reference to Christ, not our unique Baptist brand of Christianity. Furthermore, and along the same lines, our chief theological identity ("what we beleive") is the gospel itself, not Baptist ecclesiology. If a Christian is a true Christian, she already knows what she beleives and who she is, even if she is ignorant of Baptist identity. A statement such as the one quoted from the books seems symptomatic of a overly narrow defined identity that obscures the bigger picture. Your statement is more charitable and sober it seems: that many Southern Baptist churches are largely unaware of the full range of Baptist idenity. It may be an overly critical statement to suggest that Christians who have joined Southern Baptist Churches “don’t know who they are or what they beleive.” We should never loose sight of the fact as Baptists, that our chief idenity (“who we are”) in in reference to Christ, not our unique Baptist brand of Christianity. Furthermore, and along the same lines, our chief theological identity (“what we beleive”) is the gospel itself, not Baptist ecclesiology. If a Christian is a true Christian, she already knows what she beleives and who she is, even if she is ignorant of Baptist identity. A statement such as the one quoted from the books seems symptomatic of a overly narrow defined identity that obscures the bigger picture.

Your statement is more charitable and sober it seems: that many Southern Baptist churches are largely unaware of the full range of Baptist idenity.

]]> By: Micah Carter http://www.dennyburk.com/david-dockery%e2%80%99s-southern-baptist-consensus-and-renewal/#comment-38008 Micah Carter Fri, 30 May 2008 18:11:15 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=2069#comment-38008 Denny and Ray, I also have enjoyed reading this book, and yes, I think Dockery is bringing a much needed course correction to the SBC. What are your thoughts about Dockery's insistence that Calvinism/Arminianism is a <i>secondary or tertiary<i> issue. Agree or disagree [specifically in terms of worldview, truth, hermeneutics, etc.]? Denny and Ray,

I also have enjoyed reading this book, and yes, I think Dockery is bringing a much needed course correction to the SBC.

What are your thoughts about Dockery’s insistence that Calvinism/Arminianism is a secondary or tertiary issue. Agree or disagree [specifically in terms of worldview, truth, hermeneutics, etc.]?

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