Tink,

I believe that scripture tells us both that we have a great deal of responsibility in not causing others to stumble. I want to be real careful about what I regard as equivialent concerning Christianity and Mormonism (I think you would too). I do not wish to stand before God one day and give an account for such things.

…I believe it is essential to identify areas in which we can agree. Without that foundation, discussions based solely on differences are empty argument, sophistry, useless to anyone.

I don’t know that I would agree. I believe we can learn much from our differences and from those differences people can make an informed decision concerning their thoughts on the matter. John Owen did not spend time discussing the similarities of Belgic Semi-Pelagianism with that of Calvinism nor did the accounts of the Jews in the Pentateuch deal with the simularities of the Cannaanites- God focused on the differences. No one ever had to make a choice or ponder long on simularities, it is the differences that beg a decision; a conclusion.

Maybe I am missing what you are saying Tink. If I am can you state it another way or give some examples of the simularities? Thanks for your dialogue. Have a good night.

j razz

Thank you for your kind words and reassurance. I was worried that our healthy discussion had degraded into something less. I love the free exchange of ideas, yet despise contention, and may, therefore, be a bit sensitive to negative indications.

One of the reasons I have posted on this blog is to identify areas of common ground between Mormon and other Christian beliefs. Certainly there are differences, and some are quite significant. Nevertheless, before such differences can be fairly discussed, I believe it is essential to identify areas in which we can agree. Without that foundation, discussions based solely on differences are empty argument, sophistry, useless to anyone. With it, we have the basis for a genuine exchange in which everyone can benefit.
Can we agree that finding areas of common ground is a mutual goal?

Tink

Every now and then I communicate successfully with myself and assume others get it also. sorry.

Any more help would be appreciated.

Jeff

I apologize if I came across as brash- I have no contention with you nor was I even evoked to any such emotion. I was simply asking questions and responding to the items you posted. Sorry it came across that way (the downside to blogs, etc. is that you cannot read one’s emotions). So, if you wish to continue I will be happy to reciprocate.

j razz

Tink,

We can dress up Mormon doctrine and make it look pretty, but when you strip all those things away that are used to dress it up, it is what it is. The same holds true for Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. doctrines as well.

Now going on to your numbered points:

1. This is not limited to Mormon Doctrine. Christians hold That God is sovereign over all things (including spirits). There is no new prophesy or modern revelation needed to show this.

2. Jesus is the firstborn and often throughout the gospel scriptures he was held as a blasphemer by the Jews. Not because he was making claims to be “fathered” by God but b/c his claims made him equal with God.

3. Christians do not believe that Jesus was praying to Himself. Some people may believe that, but not protestant Christianity or Catholicism. This falls in line with Modalism, not the doctrine of the Trinity. Please don’t misconstrue this.

4. I have a couple of questions concerning this. 1. Why is the Mormon Jesus not ruling over his own planet and people as a God- is he exempt from god hood? 2. When you become your own God, if you live up the the requirements of godhood, what responsibilities do you have to your God? Regardless though, it is in stark contrast to Christianity in that there are no other gods. Not we don’t have anything to do with them, they just don’t exist. There is but one God according to Christian doctrine. This is not the case with Mormon doctrine.

5. Christianity would not hold this view of God and no knew revelation is needed to prove such a thing false.

6. This is a key difference. We do not have to prove ourselves worthy, Christ already did that on our behalf. He died for us- the righteous for the unrighteous. He died not only for our sins that we commit but also for the imputed sin of Adam. He did what we could never do and accomplished it to please the Father, walk in obedience unto Him and to bring many sons to glory. If we tried to prove ourselves worthy, it would be a slap in the face to the work of Christ on the cross. We cannot prove ourselves worthy as we are dead in our sins. Key difference in Mormonism and Christianity.

7. Paul says that this mystery is great but he is speaking in reference to Christ and the Church. Marriage is symbolic of Christ’s relationship with His Church. This is a great way to live out the gospel- through our marriages. As for children, they are a blessing from the Lord and we have responsibility there in raising them up in the way they should go. But according to scripture, there will be no gods beside the LORD. If we think we can become like Him then we believe the lie that was told to Adam in the garden by the serpent. So, if there are no other gods beside the one true God, then how can it be a live action eternity simulation? Granted, we are working off of two world views. I believe scripture to be inerrant and you do not. I believe scripture to be whole in itself as I believe God to be sovereign and you hold that there is modern revelation and modern prophets to utter them to “shed light on” what has been corrupted and to divulge new teachings. So, I understand how you can come to the conclusion that you do (I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but what I stated above is Mormon teaching and I would assume you hold to it).

As per your bottom line, how does more information equate to changing the very doctrines that scripture teaches? Again, granted we are working from different beliefs regarding scripture and its definition, but surely you can see the problem here. If our beliefs, which are based on Biblical scripture, gives us a certain understanding of God, creation, the afterlife, sin, the person of Jesus, the person of Satan, God’s attributes (such as omnipotence), etc. and your beliefs based on expanded scripture gives you completely different foundational beliefs, how is it then that we can believe in the same God?

j razz

Kevin,
I’m not sure of the purpose or point behind your question, but Mormons believe the Second Coming of Christ was prophesied by all of God’s prophets, as well as by Christ himself, since his earthly life, and some even before His birth. In addition, the Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants are replete with promises that Christ will return again in glory. If there’s more you want me to know from your question, please let me know.

J Razz,
I hope this doesn’t come across as too crass, but I think the way in which you discuss different Mormon doctrines is a lot like the way in which grade school wiseacres discuss the facts of life. In such cases, they often get the basic facts right, but the purpose, beauty, and goodness are completely missing. Similarly, I feel much like the parent who has to explain to a son or daughter that what they’ve been told on the playground isn’t gross, but when understood in context, is really one of the most beautiful experiences in life.

I wrote earlier that the primary difference between Mormons and other Christians is that Mormons believe God speaks to prophets today, as he did earlier. Mormons believe that God has had a lot to say to his prophets in the past 177 years, and that He has, thankfully, provided a significant level of understanding regarding the nature and relationship of God and mankind, the purpose of life, and God’s eternal plan for us. Since Christians of other faiths limit God’s word to what is in the Bible, and reject the notion that God has something specific to say to modern mankind, they don’t have the benefit of that additional knowledge. In fact, when they hear about it they often see it as “gross”. The reality, however, is that it is quite beautiful to know:
1. That “Our Father in Heaven” really is the father of our spirits.
2. That Jesus Christ REALLY is the firstborn, (and only begotten in the flesh) of the Father, and not just figuratively
3. That when Jesus Christ prayed, he wasn’t talking to himself, he was talking to the Father, the same being whose voice was heard at Christ’s baptism, and the same one who appeared next to Christ in Stephen’s vision.
4. That there is only ONE God with whom we have to concern ourselves. We have ONE God. ONE only. One God for us, that’s all. Other worlds, beings, and gods are irrelevant to the ONE God we have and worship. ONE. Three spirits, two bodies – ONE God.
5. That there is a wise purpose to this earthly life, and painful experience has useful meaning. (God isn’t just a mean kid with a magnifying glass.)
6. That God loves us so much, He wants us to have EVERYTHING He has, and will happily provide it if we prove ourselves worthy by accepting his grace.
7. That the concept of family is an eternal one, not just a convenient social structure on earth. (In a very real sense, we have children in order to get a sense of what God has to deal with on a much larger scale. Kind of a live-action eternity simulation!)

Bottom line, I don’t think Mormons and Christians of other faiths believe in different Gods, Mormons just feel they have a little more information about Him, that’s all.

Bryan,
The question about the definition of “Cult” and how it compares to Christ’s early church was really an effort to demonstrate that the word doesn’t mean anything. Because Christianity and even Islam, can also be considered “cults” of Judaism, it really is of no value in describing the Mormon church, except by those who might want to capitalize on the word’s negative connotation. Such usage would, I believe, do a propagandist proud, but it doesn’t speak well of those who use it against those with whom they disagree.

Jeff,
I read your linked post, several times, and I am still not sure what I read. Any chance you could clarify it for me? I even tried looking several words up. “Varigated demoninationalism” I think means “different beliefs” right?

Whirlygig,
I love your zeal, brother, but you might want to think about toning it down a titch.
(Check 3 Nephi 11:29)

Tink

What do you think Jesus would do? I have heard and read so many “un-Christ-like” comments by so-called respected leaders of other churchs that often wonder how it is those people actually feel accepted by Christ. Christ-like behavior is, to me, quite unlike what I see here, in Dallas, and other areas holding these beliefs.

I think if Jesus Christ were here now, he would be shocked at some of the monstrous outlandish churchs that are around and many still being built. I think he would be upset with the way money was spent and how it could have benefited so many more people in need. I also find it rather odd that you hear so much un-Christ-like commentary from others towards LDS members, while you almost literally never hear a disparaging word about others and their beliefs.

And as far as being a cult, and some of the other remarks. . . you have no idea whatsoever. You have relied on false teachings. Many of the churches I see around here look like operations of priestcraft to me. Talk about scary!

I am fascinated by the way Mormonism has borrowed/paralleled Roman Catholicism’s organizational authority claims:”priesthood power” and “line of authority” would not really make pre-Catholicism sense. I wonder what any of you might think of what is said about presumptuous-authority claims which offer men something that is actually contrary to Christ’s teaching: entitlement to righteousness. In this article I assume a family likeness between Roman Catholicism and Mormanism. http://www.personaldiscipleship.blogspot.com

Feel free to read it here.

j razz