Comments on: Critical Reflections on “An Evangelical Manifesto” http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:39:27 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Denny Burk » Neuhaus Excoriates “An Evangelical Manifesto” http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-42014 Denny Burk » Neuhaus Excoriates “An Evangelical Manifesto” Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:34:31 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-42014 [...] sharp criticism for “An Evangelical Manifesto” (about which I have previously written here, here, and here). Actually, sharp isn’t a strong enough word. The sting of Neuhaus’ [...] [...] sharp criticism for “An Evangelical Manifesto” (about which I have previously written here, here, and here). Actually, sharp isn’t a strong enough word. The sting of Neuhaus’ [...]

]]> By: Bryan L http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37228 Bryan L Sat, 10 May 2008 18:50:10 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37228 wow. I see what this has denigrated into. It doesn't matter what I say you will only hear one thing. Before I leave this thread let me state clearly: I do not want anyone to get killed, including abortion doctors. I really don't and I would hate for a pro-lifer to come along read anything I have said and conclude that they have to kill aboriton doctors to be serious about being pro-life. I just would like those who use highly charged and emotional rhetoric in speaking about abortion to try to make their lives match up a little closer with that rhetoric (or the rhetoric abandoned all together). later. Bryan wow. I see what this has denigrated into. It doesn’t matter what I say you will only hear one thing. Before I leave this thread let me state clearly: I do not want anyone to get killed, including abortion doctors. I really don’t and I would hate for a pro-lifer to come along read anything I have said and conclude that they have to kill aboriton doctors to be serious about being pro-life. I just would like those who use highly charged and emotional rhetoric in speaking about abortion to try to make their lives match up a little closer with that rhetoric (or the rhetoric abandoned all together).

later.

Bryan

]]> By: Darius http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37227 Darius Sat, 10 May 2008 17:43:59 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37227 What this has shown me is that post-modernism has done serious damage to the Christian church, if people can think like that. "You ain't a pro-life Christian until you kill yourself some abortionists." What kind of Bible does one read to get that mindset? You know, one who believes the above statement would make an excellent radical Muslim. What this has shown me is that post-modernism has done serious damage to the Christian church, if people can think like that. “You ain’t a pro-life Christian until you kill yourself some abortionists.” What kind of Bible does one read to get that mindset? You know, one who believes the above statement would make an excellent radical Muslim.

]]> By: Darius http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37226 Darius Sat, 10 May 2008 17:36:10 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37226 It's called basic hermeneutics... you might try reading up on the subject. Your simplistic approach to morality is breath-taking in its absurdity. Stop being such a liar. In one breath you tell me that if I am truly pro-life, I should take up a gun and get violent (this would lead to murder, if you haven't figured that out) and then the next you back off that statement. I was not trying to toot my own horn, or are you also incapable of basic reading skills? Brett asked me what else I do besides vote for Republicans, genius. You might want to try reading the comments before adding your own. It is indeed useless to talk to you or Brett when neither of you will stand by your own statements if called on them. Pathetic. You have my utter contempt. I'm sure Denny will moderate this comment, but I am sick and tired of your moral obfuscation on the issue of abortion. It’s called basic hermeneutics… you might try reading up on the subject. Your simplistic approach to morality is breath-taking in its absurdity.

Stop being such a liar. In one breath you tell me that if I am truly pro-life, I should take up a gun and get violent (this would lead to murder, if you haven’t figured that out) and then the next you back off that statement.

I was not trying to toot my own horn, or are you also incapable of basic reading skills? Brett asked me what else I do besides vote for Republicans, genius. You might want to try reading the comments before adding your own.

It is indeed useless to talk to you or Brett when neither of you will stand by your own statements if called on them. Pathetic. You have my utter contempt. I’m sure Denny will moderate this comment, but I am sick and tired of your moral obfuscation on the issue of abortion.

]]> By: Bryan L http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37225 Bryan L Sat, 10 May 2008 17:05:28 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37225 Darius nobody said you had to murder anyone to be serious about your pro-life convictions. Stop being silly. And just as a side note your appeal to the Bible is also a silly theological move because in the same breath you would make an argument for just war and against pacifism to justify killing (which you probably wouldn't call murder in that case) so it's obvious that you're only using the Bible to justifying whatever position you feel like taking. And my comparison to PETA and Greenpeace is that those people actually live their convictions more than pro-lifers (I am not commenting on whether I agree with them or not). Please show me that you can actually understand an analogy or just like Brett said this would be a useless waste of my time to try to talk to you about. BTW how does your life reflect that that is the biggest issue to you? All you said is when you find some time in your busy schedule you try to spruce up the crisis pregnancy center (not to put that down but it was you who was trying to toot your own horn about that). Bryan Darius nobody said you had to murder anyone to be serious about your pro-life convictions. Stop being silly.

And just as a side note your appeal to the Bible is also a silly theological move because in the same breath you would make an argument for just war and against pacifism to justify killing (which you probably wouldn’t call murder in that case) so it’s obvious that you’re only using the Bible to justifying whatever position you feel like taking.

And my comparison to PETA and Greenpeace is that those people actually live their convictions more than pro-lifers (I am not commenting on whether I agree with them or not). Please show me that you can actually understand an analogy or just like Brett said this would be a useless waste of my time to try to talk to you about.

BTW how does your life reflect that that is the biggest issue to you? All you said is when you find some time in your busy schedule you try to spruce up the crisis pregnancy center (not to put that down but it was you who was trying to toot your own horn about that).

Bryan

]]> By: Darius http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37224 Darius Sat, 10 May 2008 16:08:19 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37224 My life does reflect that abortion is the biggest issue to me. However, as a Christian I have this little thing called a Bible that also tells me not to murder. Furthermore, what would killing an abortionist solve? It likely wouldn't save any babies (or only temporarily). It would hurt the cause, giving evidence that pro-lifers are as nutty as PETA and Greenpeace. It's truly sad that you believe PETA is morally consistent. You have one of the most twisted moral compasses I've ever seen. My life does reflect that abortion is the biggest issue to me. However, as a Christian I have this little thing called a Bible that also tells me not to murder. Furthermore, what would killing an abortionist solve? It likely wouldn’t save any babies (or only temporarily). It would hurt the cause, giving evidence that pro-lifers are as nutty as PETA and Greenpeace. It’s truly sad that you believe PETA is morally consistent. You have one of the most twisted moral compasses I’ve ever seen.

]]> By: Bryan L http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37222 Bryan L Sat, 10 May 2008 15:03:01 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37222 Darius, I think you are thinking of me (not Jeremey although he might have said that also) and you've misunderstood my point. I was saying that the pro-life rhetoric doesn't match the action and thus it should be ignored as just an emotional appeal (i.e. abortion is the biggest moral evil of our age, it is mass murder and the single most important issue our generation faces). Obviously if y'all really believed that you would do more than just vote a particular way and help occasionally at the crisis pregnancy center. Before you can convince the rest of the country (and world) that abortion is as bad and evil as you say and worthy of all our attention and effort to eradicate you have to seem a little more convinced yourself (through your life and actions) and I don't think we've seen that. Heck PETA and Greenpeace seem more concerned with their causes than adamant pro-lifers do. As I've mentioned in the past if you are going to be a one issue voter than your life should really reflect that. If you are going to raise the issue of abortion up so high that it overshadows all the other needs that are present in our country and in the world (that can actually be affected by politics)then I hope your life really reflects that that one issue is the most important issue to you and that we can see that your life is drastically different than had another issue been the most important issue to you. Otherwise one issue voting just become a cop out and debates on blogs just become something we do to make ourselves feel better like it actually makes a difference. That's the bottom line for me. Bryan Darius,

I think you are thinking of me (not Jeremey although he might have said that also) and you’ve misunderstood my point. I was saying that the pro-life rhetoric doesn’t match the action and thus it should be ignored as just an emotional appeal (i.e. abortion is the biggest moral evil of our age, it is mass murder and the single most important issue our generation faces). Obviously if y’all really believed that you would do more than just vote a particular way and help occasionally at the crisis pregnancy center.

Before you can convince the rest of the country (and world) that abortion is as bad and evil as you say and worthy of all our attention and effort to eradicate you have to seem a little more convinced yourself (through your life and actions) and I don’t think we’ve seen that. Heck PETA and Greenpeace seem more concerned with their causes than adamant pro-lifers do.

As I’ve mentioned in the past if you are going to be a one issue voter than your life should really reflect that. If you are going to raise the issue of abortion up so high that it overshadows all the other needs that are present in our country and in the world (that can actually be affected by politics)then I hope your life really reflects that that one issue is the most important issue to you and that we can see that your life is drastically different than had another issue been the most important issue to you. Otherwise one issue voting just become a cop out and debates on blogs just become something we do to make ourselves feel better like it actually makes a difference.

That’s the bottom line for me.

Bryan

]]> By: Susan http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37221 Susan Sat, 10 May 2008 14:43:37 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37221 “the chief goal of this document is to establish the differences between evangelicalism and fundamentalism". Can that be true? If so, then why does the document fail to define fundamentalism. Liberalism is fairly well described, but for a non-USA reader like myself, I wasn't too sure that my understanding of fundamentalist was the same as that of the authors. “the chief goal of this document is to establish the differences between evangelicalism and fundamentalism”. Can that be true? If so, then why does the document fail to define fundamentalism. Liberalism is fairly well described, but for a non-USA reader like myself, I wasn’t too sure that my understanding of fundamentalist was the same as that of the authors.

]]> By: Darius http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37219 Darius Sat, 10 May 2008 14:18:40 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37219 Scott, you sound very similar to a guy from a few weeks ago (Jeremy was it?) who believes that to truly believe abortion is wrong is to kill abortionists. Please please never become pro-life, because the pro-life cause does not need the likes of you. Scott, you sound very similar to a guy from a few weeks ago (Jeremy was it?) who believes that to truly believe abortion is wrong is to kill abortionists. Please please never become pro-life, because the pro-life cause does not need the likes of you.

]]> By: Darius http://www.dennyburk.com/critical-reflections-on-%e2%80%9can-evangelical-manifesto%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-37218 Darius Sat, 10 May 2008 14:16:17 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1952#comment-37218 Scott, you are significantly incorrect on your analysis, though at least you don't run from the debate like Brett has. The reason for your mistake (one that many people make with regard to the Civil war and slavery) is that you put the chicken before the egg. When Lincoln was elected, the South knew that he would fight (through legislative means) to end slavery (quite possibly successfully). So they seceded. Lincoln decided it was right (this is a separate debate on the sovereignty of states) that the fed should force the states back into the Union. The war was NOT to ban slavery, but to re-unite the Union. The method that Lincoln would have used to ban slavery was similar to what Wilberforce used (though since Lincoln had more power than Wilberforce, it would have happened sooner). That the South seceded only made it easier, since he first freed those about whom he would have little resistance. Wilberforce is a better example since there is no war to confuse the issue. He fought slavery exactly as we should fight abortion: politically with every fiber of our being. He did NOT, as Brett thinks is the truly Christian way, believe that Christians should only fight slavery by sponsoring the freedom of any slaves we come in contact with. That is not to say that such methods or working on the Underground Railroad was not legitimate, but rather that BOTH were Christ-like methods to abolish slavery. Scott, you are significantly incorrect on your analysis, though at least you don’t run from the debate like Brett has. The reason for your mistake (one that many people make with regard to the Civil war and slavery) is that you put the chicken before the egg. When Lincoln was elected, the South knew that he would fight (through legislative means) to end slavery (quite possibly successfully). So they seceded. Lincoln decided it was right (this is a separate debate on the sovereignty of states) that the fed should force the states back into the Union. The war was NOT to ban slavery, but to re-unite the Union. The method that Lincoln would have used to ban slavery was similar to what Wilberforce used (though since Lincoln had more power than Wilberforce, it would have happened sooner). That the South seceded only made it easier, since he first freed those about whom he would have little resistance.

Wilberforce is a better example since there is no war to confuse the issue. He fought slavery exactly as we should fight abortion: politically with every fiber of our being. He did NOT, as Brett thinks is the truly Christian way, believe that Christians should only fight slavery by sponsoring the freedom of any slaves we come in contact with. That is not to say that such methods or working on the Underground Railroad was not legitimate, but rather that BOTH were Christ-like methods to abolish slavery.

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