Comments on: Christians and Alcohol http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/ Fri, 10 Sep 2010 01:26:07 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Ellen Sichina http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-37582 Ellen Sichina Wed, 21 May 2008 18:40:52 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-37582 Matthew, many thanks for your exegesis! We indeed are free in Christ, yet that freedom demands great responsibility. My argument keeps getting changed beyond recognition. We seem to agree that we are free in Christ and that scripture never states that drinking itself is necessarily evil, yet scripture says much more. Your comments on "Love your neighbor as yourself" marvelously illustrate where we differ. You state that "without assuming that drinking is wrong, I don't see how this phrase has much to do with it." Yet we dare not reinvent Mark 12:31 as "...Love your neighbor as yourself, except where drinking alcohol is concerned." These verses are very relevant whenever we take actions that affect others. Steve shares the heartbreaking news that the rate of alcoholism in his area is 25%. Many people are struggling with alcoholism. These people are our neighbors! Here's a question regarding Christians and drinking... What are we as Christians called to do, given these neighbors (Mark 12:31, Galatians 5:14, Philippians 2:4)? We might be tempted to disregard them, relishing our freedom, yet then we neglect the New Testament witness regarding love. "By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us...." (1 John 4:13) Matthew, many thanks for your exegesis! We indeed are free in Christ, yet that freedom demands great responsibility. My argument keeps getting changed beyond recognition. We seem to agree that we are free in Christ and that scripture never states that drinking itself is necessarily evil, yet scripture says much more.

Your comments on “Love your neighbor as yourself” marvelously illustrate where we differ. You state that “without assuming that drinking is wrong, I don’t see how this phrase has much to do with it.” Yet we dare not reinvent Mark 12:31 as “…Love your neighbor as yourself, except where drinking alcohol is concerned.” These verses are very relevant whenever we take actions that affect others.

Steve shares the heartbreaking news that the rate of alcoholism in his area is 25%. Many people are struggling with alcoholism. These people are our neighbors! Here’s a question regarding Christians and drinking… What are we as Christians called to do, given these neighbors (Mark 12:31, Galatians 5:14, Philippians 2:4)? We might be tempted to disregard them, relishing our freedom, yet then we neglect the New Testament witness regarding love. “By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us….” (1 John 4:13)

]]> By: Ellen Sichina http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-37581 Ellen Sichina Wed, 21 May 2008 18:15:25 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-37581 Lucas, when discussing my claims that these scriptures (Mark 12:30-31, Galatians 5:13-14, Luke 17:1-2, Philippians 2:4, Romans 14:21) are very relevant, you state that "eisegesis does not make them relevant." Jesus' greatest commands (Mark 12:30-31) are never irrelevant. Neither verse specifies exceptions. We dare not reinvent Mark 12:31 as "...Love your neighbor as yourself, except where drinking alcohol is concerned." Romans 14:21 expressly mentions drinking wine. Since we are discussing Christians and alcohol, reason compels us to deem this scripture relevant. My friend, you severely distort my position, creating an extreme straw man argument and then charging me with eisegesis. Perhaps my real argument has been a real challenge to refute? Let us address your argument, which deems key parts of the New Testament irrelevant. Therein is the key problem with your argument. Whenever we take actions (e.g., drinking) that affect others, then Mark 12:31, Galatians 5:13-14, and Philippians 2:4 must be relevant. (Please forgive my delay in responding; seminary and ministry responsibilities have kept me very busy.) Lucas, when discussing my claims that these scriptures (Mark 12:30-31, Galatians 5:13-14, Luke 17:1-2, Philippians 2:4, Romans 14:21) are very relevant, you state that “eisegesis does not make them relevant.” Jesus’ greatest commands (Mark 12:30-31) are never irrelevant. Neither verse specifies exceptions. We dare not reinvent Mark 12:31 as “…Love your neighbor as yourself, except where drinking alcohol is concerned.” Romans 14:21 expressly mentions drinking wine. Since we are discussing Christians and alcohol, reason compels us to deem this scripture relevant.

My friend, you severely distort my position, creating an extreme straw man argument and then charging me with eisegesis. Perhaps my real argument has been a real challenge to refute?

Let us address your argument, which deems key parts of the New Testament irrelevant. Therein is the key problem with your argument. Whenever we take actions (e.g., drinking) that affect others, then Mark 12:31, Galatians 5:13-14, and Philippians 2:4 must be relevant.

(Please forgive my delay in responding; seminary and ministry responsibilities have kept me very busy.)

]]> By: Bryan L http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-37011 Bryan L Mon, 05 May 2008 23:53:22 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-37011 "The debate is over whether youth pastors should encourage young people to drink." Really? I thought it was just over Christians and alcohol in general. Who here was arguing that Youth Pastors should encourage their youth to drink? I don't think anyone said that. I could be wrong though and I would like to be pointed to the comment where that was stated. I can't imagine a youth pastor standing in front of a bunch of teens encouraging them to go out and drink and get wasted. Bryan “The debate is over whether youth pastors should encourage young people to drink.”

Really? I thought it was just over Christians and alcohol in general. Who here was arguing that Youth Pastors should encourage their youth to drink? I don’t think anyone said that. I could be wrong though and I would like to be pointed to the comment where that was stated.

I can’t imagine a youth pastor standing in front of a bunch of teens encouraging them to go out and drink and get wasted.

Bryan

]]> By: Steve http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-37010 Steve Mon, 05 May 2008 23:40:52 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-37010 Friend Micah, I too was saved from abuse of alcohol, but .. the debate is not over our attitude towards sinners. Compassion is the only attitude we can have. The debate is over whether youth pastors should encourage young people to drink. Steve Friend Micah, I too was saved from abuse of alcohol, but .. the debate is not over our attitude towards sinners. Compassion is the only attitude we can have.
The debate is over whether youth pastors should encourage young people to drink.
Steve

]]> By: micah the pilot http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36989 micah the pilot Mon, 05 May 2008 12:41:45 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36989 actually, my position is closer to this: instead of teaching young men and women how to abstain and avoid (which are useful skills), let us teach them (or at least learn to demonstrate before them and teach them to practice themselves) discipline and self-control, which are of christ. actually, my position is closer to this: instead of teaching young men and women how to abstain and avoid (which are useful skills), let us teach them (or at least learn to demonstrate before them and teach them to practice themselves) discipline and self-control, which are of christ.

]]> By: micah the pilot http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36988 micah the pilot Mon, 05 May 2008 12:34:45 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36988 well, steve, if anything i think the implication would be to read AP's advice. maybe to teach young men and women how to think. maybe we should show them how to live. maybe we should love them, pray for them, and let god be sovereign over them. the prodigal's brother didn't lack sin for all of his obedience and the prodigal didn't lack forgiveness (and imputed righteousness) for all his repentance. i'm not clamoring for disobedience, but faithless disobedience i don't think is any worse than faithless obedience. and i'm not against obedience (though i'm not sure that teetotaling <i>is</i> obedience). but i'm specifically for <i>faithful</i> obedience. well, steve, if anything i think the implication would be to read AP’s advice. maybe to teach young men and women how to think. maybe we should show them how to live. maybe we should love them, pray for them, and let god be sovereign over them. the prodigal’s brother didn’t lack sin for all of his obedience and the prodigal didn’t lack forgiveness (and imputed righteousness) for all his repentance.

i’m not clamoring for disobedience, but faithless disobedience i don’t think is any worse than faithless obedience. and i’m not against obedience (though i’m not sure that teetotaling is obedience). but i’m specifically for faithful obedience.

]]> By: Steve http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36967 Steve Sun, 04 May 2008 23:43:57 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36967 g'day Micah, I'm not real sure what your comment was meant to prove.. that we ought to serve booze at every BGEA evangelistic event in order to loosen people up to make "decisions"? or "Every body that drinks millers should read Romans 'cause they are gonna die?" :) Steve g’day Micah,
I’m not real sure what your comment was meant to prove.. that we ought to serve booze at every BGEA evangelistic event in order to loosen people up to make “decisions”? or “Every body that drinks millers should read Romans ’cause they are gonna die?”
:)
Steve

]]> By: micah the pilot http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36960 micah the pilot Sun, 04 May 2008 13:30:14 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36960 <i>One Tuesday morning, before 8 o’clock, I went to the library to check my e-mail. I had a message from a girl I’d met a few weeks before, and her e-mail mentioned a verse in Romans. I went down to the Circle K and bought a 40-ounce can of Miller High Life for $1.29. Then I went back to where I was staying, rolled a few cigarettes, cracked open my drink, and started reading Romans. I wanted to read the verse from the e-mail, but I couldn’t remember what it was, so I started at the beginning of the book. By the time I got to chapter 10, the beer was gone, the ashtray needed emptying and I was a Christian.</i> sound advice: http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_SpiritualHelp_Article.asp?ArticleID=872 One Tuesday morning, before 8 o’clock, I went to the library to check my e-mail. I had a message from a girl I’d met a few weeks before, and her e-mail mentioned a verse in Romans. I went down to the Circle K and bought a 40-ounce can of Miller High Life for $1.29. Then I went back to where I was staying, rolled a few cigarettes, cracked open my drink, and started reading Romans. I wanted to read the verse from the e-mail, but I couldn’t remember what it was, so I started at the beginning of the book. By the time I got to chapter 10, the beer was gone, the ashtray needed emptying and I was a Christian.

sound advice:
http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_SpiritualHelp_Article.asp?ArticleID=872

]]> By: Lucas Knisely http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36792 Lucas Knisely Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:25:58 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36792 Matthew responded to one of the verses used, thus showing it to be un-supportive of the position, and Steve's response is to repackage the same thing he said earlier. And D.J. picked up on something telling that I noticed earlier from this quote by Steve: "<b><i>However, most members of my family (12/17) came to acknowledge through my integrity in this matter the reality of the power of the resurrection, and have since come to know the Lord.</i></b> Through <b>your</b> integrity in this matter?! I keep getting told this is a matter of maturity, and that I'm being childish and others are being selfish. Well it must be nice to sit up in an ivory tower of self proclaimed maturity, selflessness, and integrity. The pride that such a view stems from seeps through the cracks and is made visible through these little statements about maturity, childishness, and selfishness. Because the reality is, when you make a rule that God has not made, pride is at the root. Matthew responded to one of the verses used, thus showing it to be un-supportive of the position, and Steve’s response is to repackage the same thing he said earlier.

And D.J. picked up on something telling that I noticed earlier from this quote by Steve:

“However, most members of my family (12/17) came to acknowledge through my integrity in this matter the reality of the power of the resurrection, and have since come to know the Lord.

Through your integrity in this matter?! I keep getting told this is a matter of maturity, and that I’m being childish and others are being selfish. Well it must be nice to sit up in an ivory tower of self proclaimed maturity, selflessness, and integrity. The pride that such a view stems from seeps through the cracks and is made visible through these little statements about maturity, childishness, and selfishness. Because the reality is, when you make a rule that God has not made, pride is at the root.

]]> By: D.J. Williams http://www.dennyburk.com/christians-and-alcohol/#comment-36789 D.J. Williams Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:09:34 +0000 http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1788#comment-36789 Wow, Steve. Are you really challenging us to match your number of converts, as if your number of converts has anything to do with you? That's dangerous ground, brother. Smiley face or not, I was really put off by that. I have had a friend comment that he finds it an unheard of concept that I drink without ever getting drunk. He has said he's never met anyone like that before. If that's not an avenue for the gospel, I don't know what is. I have to agree with Matthew above - if we were actually modeling sinful behavior, then your critiques would be spot on. Since we're not modeling sinful behavior, your critiques are not really relevant. As Ferg said, one might as well refrain from speaking about God's gift of sex as enjoyed in marriage lest a teenager hear about it and seek to get a head start. The fact that Ellen finds this to be a good idea is frightening to me. I don't mean any offense, but that's how I feel. We need to seriously evaluate what it means to "cause another to stumble." Talking about sex in marriage is not "causing someone to stumble" who goes out and indulges in it before marriage. Otherwise, God has violated his own command by inspiring the Song of Solomon. Likewise, celebrating responsible drinking is not "causing someone to stumble" who goes out and gets drunk. Otherwise, God has violated his own command by inspiring Deuteronomy 24:16 and Psalm 104:15 (BTW - note that nobody arguing the other side as even <i>attempted to touch</i> those verses). "Causing someone to stumble" is bragging constantly about the joys of sex with your unmarried friend and urging them in that direction. "Causing someone to stumble" is deliberately offering a drink to a recovering alcoholic. The imagery Paul uses of "stumbling blocks" would have conjured imagery to his original audience of one who lays down a rock in the path of a blind man - exploiting their weakness for personal pleasure or amusement. <i>That</i> is causing someone to stumble, and <i>that</i> is not what we're doing or advocating doing. Wow, Steve. Are you really challenging us to match your number of converts, as if your number of converts has anything to do with you? That’s dangerous ground, brother. Smiley face or not, I was really put off by that.

I have had a friend comment that he finds it an unheard of concept that I drink without ever getting drunk. He has said he’s never met anyone like that before. If that’s not an avenue for the gospel, I don’t know what is.

I have to agree with Matthew above – if we were actually modeling sinful behavior, then your critiques would be spot on. Since we’re not modeling sinful behavior, your critiques are not really relevant. As Ferg said, one might as well refrain from speaking about God’s gift of sex as enjoyed in marriage lest a teenager hear about it and seek to get a head start. The fact that Ellen finds this to be a good idea is frightening to me. I don’t mean any offense, but that’s how I feel. We need to seriously evaluate what it means to “cause another to stumble.” Talking about sex in marriage is not “causing someone to stumble” who goes out and indulges in it before marriage. Otherwise, God has violated his own command by inspiring the Song of Solomon. Likewise, celebrating responsible drinking is not “causing someone to stumble” who goes out and gets drunk. Otherwise, God has violated his own command by inspiring Deuteronomy 24:16 and Psalm 104:15 (BTW – note that nobody arguing the other side as even attempted to touch those verses). “Causing someone to stumble” is bragging constantly about the joys of sex with your unmarried friend and urging them in that direction. “Causing someone to stumble” is deliberately offering a drink to a recovering alcoholic. The imagery Paul uses of “stumbling blocks” would have conjured imagery to his original audience of one who lays down a rock in the path of a blind man – exploiting their weakness for personal pleasure or amusement. That is causing someone to stumble, and that is not what we’re doing or advocating doing.

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