Amen. That is how I got saved. I was scared of going to hell. I didn’t want God’s boot to kick me in the face (read: Orwell). Of course I didn’t have the whole picture of the Gospel and Christianity yet I eventually saw more of it and continue to see more of it to this day.

If we are truly God’s child and His spirit lives within us, then we will love. And the world will know we are His by our love. God loves because He IS love. And when God lives in us, we love too. Period.

Am I missing something?

(Of course, this is all off-point, since the post was about McLaren’s revisionist issues and the subject of hell.)

McLaren starts off by suggesting that God is going to enforce his views to fix the problem of injustices but he fails to grasp that for Paul because God inflicts wrath on the unrighteous, God is just to judge the world. Again, the wrathful God is just to judge because he punishes the wicked.

McLaren:
“Simply put, if we believe that God will ultimately enforce his will by forceful domination, and will eternally torture all who resist that domination, then torture and domination become not only permissible but in some way godly.”

Paul:
Romans 3:5-6 “But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is he? (I am speaking in human terms.) Absolutely not! For otherwise how could God judge the world?

It’s a subtle difference, but keep looking…

McLaren again writes:
“…even God finds it impossible to fix the world apart from violence and coercion.”

There are so many problems working in this statement that one can’t address them all here. For (1), it flies in the face of the Gospel message summed up in John 3:16. (2) It neglects to deal rightly with God’s plans for mankind as redemptive plans and not as plans for “fixing”. (3) It lacks proper acknowledgments of human responsibility.

Do you see these subtle shifts? McLaren has changed the context under which to address the issue of God’s justice. He is boldly and nearly calling into question God himself in this terrible display of theodicy, and he suggests that God is now responsible to fix the problems of injustices, then he accuses God of only being able to do so through the dooming violence of hell as a means of coercion.

God does not coercively carry out his plans to fix mankind. He offered his only son up for our sins (not as an act of violence, but as an act of love) willing that none should perish – to redeem mankind. This will amount to salvation in that great day of judgment for the righteous, but yes, punishment for the wicked.

Romans 2:6-8 “He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.”

If reframed in a humanistic (insert more long words here of critical nature against whatever you’d call this worldview) you end up with this garbage: “This eschatological understanding of a violent second coming leads us to believe (as we’ve said before) that in the end, even God finds it impossible to fix the world apart from violence and coercion.”

McLaren:
“even God finds it impossible to fix the world apart from violence and coercion”

Paul and the Psalmist:
“He will reward each one according to his works.”

Is God a tyrant?

Or dare we believe the words of John, that “God is love”?

These subtle un-truths work into our books so expertly – sometimes naively, sometimes mistakenly, and sometimes blindly. We must be very careful weighing what we read against the Spirit. Become experts in your discernment.

Yes, you read me correctly. But I would hasten to say that I agree with the commenters who point out that God’s future vengeance isn’t the only thing that motivates our love (though it is certainly part of the motivation).

What I have in mind in this post is the way the Bible speaks to Christians who are suffering unjustly at the hands of their enemies. Jesus repeatedly told his followers to “love your enemies” (Mt 5:44; Lk 6:27, 35). He says “pray for those who persecute you” (Mt 5:45) and “do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you” (Lk 6:27-28). He specifically instructs his followers not to exact their own personal revenge, but he says “turn the other cheek” (Lk 6:29). In all of those passages, Jesus cites the character of God as the motive for love. God loves His enemies, so you should love your enemies too (Mt 5:45; Lk 6:35). So, yes, I heartily affirm God’s love as a motive for our own.

There are other passages that address Christians who are suffering at the hands of their enemies. In many of these passages, the apostolic author will encourage his beleaguered readers by reminding them that God will ultimately save them from their suffering by judging their enemies. These passages are almost too numerous to count, but I have listed several in my original post that I will print here as well:

John 5:22
²² “For not even the Father judges anyone, but ^aHe has given all judgment to the Son”

Revelation 19:11-16
¹¹ And I saw ^aheaven opened; and behold, a ^bwhite horse, and He who sat upon it is called ^cFaithful and True; and in ^drighteousness He judges and wages war. ¹² And His ^aeyes are a flame of fire, and upon His head are many ^bdiadems; and He has a ^cname written upon Him which no one knows except Himself. ¹³ And He is clothed with a ^arobe dipped in blood; and His name is called ^bThe Word of God. ¹⁴ And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in ^afine linen, ^bwhite and clean, were following Him on white horses. ¹⁵ And ^afrom His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that ^bwith it He may smite the nations; and He will ^1crule them with a rod of iron; and ^dHe treads the ²wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. ¹⁶ And on His robe and on His thigh He has ^aa name written, ^b“KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Romans 12:19
^19
aNever take your own revenge, beloved, but ¹leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, ^b“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
^6
1For after all ^ait is only just ²for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, ⁷ and to give relief to you who are afflicted ¹and to us as well ^2awhen the Lord Jesus shall be revealed ^bfrom heaven ^cwith ³His mighty angels ^din flaming fire, ⁸ dealing out retribution to those who ^ado not know God and to those who ^bdo not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ And these will pay the penalty of ^aeternal destruction, ^baway from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, ¹⁰ when He comes to be ^aglorified ¹in His ²saints on that ^bday, and to be marveled at among all who have believed– for our ^ctestimony to you was believed.

These passages reveal an eschatological perspective that is looking forward to the coming judgment of Christ as the day of vindication for God’s people and a day of punishment for their enemies. Believing that Christ will be our justice helps Christians not to exact their own personal revenge before the great day.

I hope that’s helpful.

Blessings,
Denny Burk

“Christian hope has always been grounded in both salvation for the righteous and judgment for the wicked.”

that is a quote from post 2 above which i don’t understand. I put no hope in the judgement of the wicked. I don’t focus on those things, i think about the love mercy and grace of Jesus Christ and tell people about it.

What happened to, “he who has seen me, has seen the Father” (John 14:9), or “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), or “He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature” (Hebrews 1:3)?
The holiness, justice and righteousness, and the love, grace and mercy of the Father are not opposed to each other, but form an undivided heart, determined to bless us at all costs.

Ben R, I like what you have to say. On the cross, the holiness, righteousness, and justice of God are not at odds with the mercy, grace and goodness of God, but form into one self-sacrificing love, which is prepared to, and actually does, suffer dis-honor and grotesque shame in order to reach us and bless us beyond our wildest dreams. The death of Jesus is not about appeasing an angry God. It is about the Triune God doing the impossible—reaching the human race in its terrible darkness and corruption, where the undivided heart of the Father is unimaginable.

“He who has seen me, has seen the Father.”

I will love my enemies because Jesus asked me too, not because i hope in his coming wrath. I also will definitely NOT be scaring people into heaven.

My point is that I disagree. I see references to “justice” and “judgment” through the lens of the justice spoken of by Christ, especially since he calls himself the only judge (John 5:something)

First, I disagree with your exegesis of the 1 Peter and John 5 passage I referenced earlier. Those passages seem to be about how we should use Christ as an example (in the case of the former) and the scope of Christ’s authority and work (in the case of the latter). Contra your assertion, no mention of “vindication” or “unrighteousness” (or related ideas) is made.

Second, far from “glossing over” what the Bible says, my quest is to penetrate these terms I think I understand (e.g., justice, forgiveness, righteousness) to make sure I’m not being foolish. The depictions of God’s justice are more complex and nuanced than simple creaturely vengeance – or simple penal substitution. While I agree that the penal substitutionary model is the most dominant way the cross is talked about in the Bible, there are other models as well, and was probably not the dominate model in the first few centuries of the church (e.g., Christus Victor). For that matter, it is my opinion that terms like forgiveness and righteousness take on different colors as you penetrate them as well.

I suppose I’m saying I reject a reading of the Gospels and Epistles that solely relies on Luther, Aquinas, and Augustine for the categories in which I think about God and his activity in the world. This might put us on different enough ground that conversation becomes difficult.