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	<title>Comments on: An Egalitarian Chapel Message at DTS?</title>
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	<description>A commentary on theology, politics, and culture</description>
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		<title>By: Benjamin A</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35821</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brent and Sue-

Obviously you both value being practical over against being emotional. 

Question: What makes being emotional some kind of insult?

Since man was made in the image of God, and woman was taken from man (thus they were created- male and female); emotions obviously are part of being in the image of God. Why have you determined that being emotional is an insult?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent and Sue-</p>
<p>Obviously you both value being practical over against being emotional. </p>
<p>Question: What makes being emotional some kind of insult?</p>
<p>Since man was made in the image of God, and woman was taken from man (thus they were created- male and female); emotions obviously are part of being in the image of God. Why have you determined that being emotional is an insult?</p>
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		<title>By: Sue</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35762</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35762</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Brent. 

I have never seen one tiny bit of proof that men make better decisions than women or are better exegetes. We know that females score slightly higher on some verbal assessment tools - they are better at spelling and foreign languages. Therefore women should make up the bulk of exegetical studies and text crit. I think I sometimes expect men to perform at too high a level in this area and am often disappointed. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Brent. </p>
<p>I have never seen one tiny bit of proof that men make better decisions than women or are better exegetes. We know that females score slightly higher on some verbal assessment tools &#8211; they are better at spelling and foreign languages. Therefore women should make up the bulk of exegetical studies and text crit. I think I sometimes expect men to perform at too high a level in this area and am often disappointed. <img src='http://www.dennyburk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35744</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35744</guid>
		<description>I like how sweeping (and insulting) generalizations like &quot;men are practical and women are emotional&quot; just fly under the radar.  Ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like how sweeping (and insulting) generalizations like &#8220;men are practical and women are emotional&#8221; just fly under the radar.  Ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: pastorsteve</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35624</link>
		<dc:creator>pastorsteve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35624</guid>
		<description>Denny,
As an alumnus of DTS, I can say that I am disappointed but not surprised.  This theology has come in covertly into the seminary.  I once had high esteem for the seminary while I attended but that has all changed.  I think the biggest blame will fall on the shoulders of the president.  Things have changed fastest theologically under his leadership.  History will show the complete story but I am convinced the last great chapter was written for the school.  Money and student enrollment is the greater focus than the doctrinal fidelity or the creed to &quot;preach the Word&quot;.  Oh I know, there isn&#039;t preaching in the seminary (cause it isn,t the church) but - beg to differ.
At least once a month, a woman preaches in chapel.  Although they aren&#039;t following the old exegetical method from the school&#039;s rich history. 

Thankfully God is sovereign and Jesus will build His church.

In Christ,
Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denny,<br />
As an alumnus of DTS, I can say that I am disappointed but not surprised.  This theology has come in covertly into the seminary.  I once had high esteem for the seminary while I attended but that has all changed.  I think the biggest blame will fall on the shoulders of the president.  Things have changed fastest theologically under his leadership.  History will show the complete story but I am convinced the last great chapter was written for the school.  Money and student enrollment is the greater focus than the doctrinal fidelity or the creed to &#8220;preach the Word&#8221;.  Oh I know, there isn&#8217;t preaching in the seminary (cause it isn,t the church) but &#8211; beg to differ.<br />
At least once a month, a woman preaches in chapel.  Although they aren&#8217;t following the old exegetical method from the school&#8217;s rich history. </p>
<p>Thankfully God is sovereign and Jesus will build His church.</p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Sue</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35471</link>
		<dc:creator>Sue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35471</guid>
		<description>Ferg,

You say that women are more emotionally driven but you do encourage men to listen to women. I am glad for that. 

I worry that men who do exegesis without really listening to women fall into error.

Here are two examples, 

Kostenberger writes,

&lt;i&gt;While the senses â€œsourceâ€ and â€œpre-eminentâ€ have been proposed for kephalÄ“, no passage is extant where that sense is favored by the context. In fact, every time one person is referred to as the â€œheadâ€ of another person in both biblical and extrabiblical literature, the person who is the â€œheadâ€ has authority over the other person and kephalÄ“ conveys the notion of authority.&lt;/i&gt;

Grudem writes,

&lt;i&gt;I once looked up over 2,300 examples of the word &quot;head&quot; (kephalÂ¯e) in ancient Greek. In these texts the word kephalÂ¯e is applied to many people in authority, but to none without governing authority:

    * the king of Egypt is called &quot;head&quot; of the nation&lt;/i&gt;

But here are the exact quotes that they are working from, 

&lt;i&gt;the whole family of the Ptolemies was exceedingly eminent and conspicuous above all other royal families, and among the Ptolemies, Philadelphus was the most illustrious; for all the rest put together scarcely did as many glorious and praiseworthy actions as this one king did by himself, being, as it were, the leader of the herd, and in a manner the head of all the kings. Moses 2:30

If, then, any one proves himself a man of such a character in the city he will appear superior to the whole city, and if a city show itself of such a character it will be the chief of all the country around; and if a nation do so it will be the lord of all the other nations, as the head is to the body occupying the pre-eminence of situation, not more for the sake of glory than for that of advancing the interests of those that see.

For continual appearances of good models stamp impressions closely resembling themselves on all souls which are not utterly obdurate and intractable; (115) and I say this with reference to those who wish to imitate models of excellent and admirable beauty, On Rewards and Punishment 114&lt;/i&gt;

The person that is &quot;head&quot; is specifically &quot;pre-eminent.&quot; That is a fact. The head, however, is not the authority over the one that he or she is the head of. He is a model of excellence to be imitated because he is &quot;pre-eminent.&quot;

This is the very best example that Grudem could find to prove that kephale meant authority over, and it only shows pre-eminence, which Kostenberger denies. 

Why? I just don&#039;t understand how people can say the exact opposite of what is true. Is this because I, as a woman, am too emotional, that I don&#039;t see that the examples prove authority instead of pre-eminence, as Kostengerger argues. Is it because K is man, and I am a woman, that what he says is accepted as true?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ferg,</p>
<p>You say that women are more emotionally driven but you do encourage men to listen to women. I am glad for that. </p>
<p>I worry that men who do exegesis without really listening to women fall into error.</p>
<p>Here are two examples, </p>
<p>Kostenberger writes,</p>
<p><i>While the senses â€œsourceâ€ and â€œpre-eminentâ€ have been proposed for kephalÄ“, no passage is extant where that sense is favored by the context. In fact, every time one person is referred to as the â€œheadâ€ of another person in both biblical and extrabiblical literature, the person who is the â€œheadâ€ has authority over the other person and kephalÄ“ conveys the notion of authority.</i></p>
<p>Grudem writes,</p>
<p><i>I once looked up over 2,300 examples of the word &#8220;head&#8221; (kephalÂ¯e) in ancient Greek. In these texts the word kephalÂ¯e is applied to many people in authority, but to none without governing authority:</p>
<p>    * the king of Egypt is called &#8220;head&#8221; of the nation</i></p>
<p>But here are the exact quotes that they are working from, </p>
<p><i>the whole family of the Ptolemies was exceedingly eminent and conspicuous above all other royal families, and among the Ptolemies, Philadelphus was the most illustrious; for all the rest put together scarcely did as many glorious and praiseworthy actions as this one king did by himself, being, as it were, the leader of the herd, and in a manner the head of all the kings. Moses 2:30</p>
<p>If, then, any one proves himself a man of such a character in the city he will appear superior to the whole city, and if a city show itself of such a character it will be the chief of all the country around; and if a nation do so it will be the lord of all the other nations, as the head is to the body occupying the pre-eminence of situation, not more for the sake of glory than for that of advancing the interests of those that see.</p>
<p>For continual appearances of good models stamp impressions closely resembling themselves on all souls which are not utterly obdurate and intractable; (115) and I say this with reference to those who wish to imitate models of excellent and admirable beauty, On Rewards and Punishment 114</i></p>
<p>The person that is &#8220;head&#8221; is specifically &#8220;pre-eminent.&#8221; That is a fact. The head, however, is not the authority over the one that he or she is the head of. He is a model of excellence to be imitated because he is &#8220;pre-eminent.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is the very best example that Grudem could find to prove that kephale meant authority over, and it only shows pre-eminence, which Kostenberger denies. </p>
<p>Why? I just don&#8217;t understand how people can say the exact opposite of what is true. Is this because I, as a woman, am too emotional, that I don&#8217;t see that the examples prove authority instead of pre-eminence, as Kostengerger argues. Is it because K is man, and I am a woman, that what he says is accepted as true?</p>
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		<title>By: Quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35459</link>
		<dc:creator>Quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35459</guid>
		<description>PS: Like I said previously, I&#039;ve wondered about this topic for awhile, but I decided to comment on it in this thread, since it was about gender roles: complementarianism and egalitarianism. Seemed to fit. At least my theories on the subject did, but we never got to talk about those because people just seemed to think I was being funny with my original comment asking for examples. Oh well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: Like I said previously, I&#8217;ve wondered about this topic for awhile, but I decided to comment on it in this thread, since it was about gender roles: complementarianism and egalitarianism. Seemed to fit. At least my theories on the subject did, but we never got to talk about those because people just seemed to think I was being funny with my original comment asking for examples. Oh well.</p>
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		<title>By: Quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35458</link>
		<dc:creator>Quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35458</guid>
		<description>Bryan,

That&#039;s cool, but I was very serious in mentioning the topic. And since when did &quot;waste of time&quot; prevent you or anyone else from debating on this blog?? :o)

I feel that many women dress and look a certain way albeit subconsciously in order to fit in to the male-dominated arena in which they are trying to succeed. It&#039;s almost as if women think that men won&#039;t taken them seriously if they look like women. I partly blame feminism gone awry, and I partly blame men. But since you bailed on the topic, I guess I&#039;m left with my theories (the aforementioned and others) and no examples of beautiful, brilliant women to prove me wrong. No worries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s cool, but I was very serious in mentioning the topic. And since when did &#8220;waste of time&#8221; prevent you or anyone else from debating on this blog?? <img src='http://www.dennyburk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
<p>I feel that many women dress and look a certain way albeit subconsciously in order to fit in to the male-dominated arena in which they are trying to succeed. It&#8217;s almost as if women think that men won&#8217;t taken them seriously if they look like women. I partly blame feminism gone awry, and I partly blame men. But since you bailed on the topic, I guess I&#8217;m left with my theories (the aforementioned and others) and no examples of beautiful, brilliant women to prove me wrong. No worries.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan L</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35455</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35455</guid>
		<description>Well Darius when you get your Ivy League degree and I hear you talk about something of substance then maybe I&#039;ll take your point about Portman serious.

Quixote:
Sorry but I feel the topic is kind of silly and a waste of time so I&#039;m gonna sit the rest of this out. 

Later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Darius when you get your Ivy League degree and I hear you talk about something of substance then maybe I&#8217;ll take your point about Portman serious.</p>
<p>Quixote:<br />
Sorry but I feel the topic is kind of silly and a waste of time so I&#8217;m gonna sit the rest of this out. </p>
<p>Later.</p>
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		<title>By: Quixote</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35448</link>
		<dc:creator>Quixote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35448</guid>
		<description>Bryan L,

Actresses don&#039;t count!!! But you sort of proved my point. Thanks. (FYI: I don&#039;t hang out at MIT, but I&#039;ve seen a few students and none are Bosworthesque.)

I said that no ladies in stellar Academia or Politics or even Business (although I may rescind the business category) are 
also beautiful. Please prove me wrong. 

But I never said that actresses aren&#039;t pretty. Duh. Nor did I say they can&#039;t be smart. Geena Davis is a Mensa member! But she&#039;s an actress, and only played a president on TV. :o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan L,</p>
<p>Actresses don&#8217;t count!!! But you sort of proved my point. Thanks. (FYI: I don&#8217;t hang out at MIT, but I&#8217;ve seen a few students and none are Bosworthesque.)</p>
<p>I said that no ladies in stellar Academia or Politics or even Business (although I may rescind the business category) are<br />
also beautiful. Please prove me wrong. </p>
<p>But I never said that actresses aren&#8217;t pretty. Duh. Nor did I say they can&#8217;t be smart. Geena Davis is a Mensa member! But she&#8217;s an actress, and only played a president on TV. <img src='http://www.dennyburk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/an-egalitarian-chapel-message-at-dts/#comment-35444</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1705#comment-35444</guid>
		<description>Have you ever heard Natalie Portman speak about anything of substance?  If you had, you wouldn&#039;t chalk her up in the brilliant column.  Having an Ivy League degree doesn&#039;t mean a lot (this is the time where liberals jump in and make a joke about Bush :)).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever heard Natalie Portman speak about anything of substance?  If you had, you wouldn&#8217;t chalk her up in the brilliant column.  Having an Ivy League degree doesn&#8217;t mean a lot (this is the time where liberals jump in and make a joke about Bush <img src='http://www.dennyburk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
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