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	<title>Comments on: A Response to Daniel Wallace</title>
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	<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/</link>
	<description>A commentary on theology, politics, and culture</description>
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		<title>By: Denny Burk &#187; Neuhaus Excoriates â€œAn Evangelical Manifestoâ€</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-42016</link>
		<dc:creator>Denny Burk &#187; Neuhaus Excoriates â€œAn Evangelical Manifestoâ€</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-42016</guid>
		<description>[...] for &#8220;An Evangelical Manifesto&#8221; (about which I have previously written here, here, and here). Actually, sharp isn&#8217;t a strong enough word. The sting of Neuhaus&#8217; essay is not so [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for &#8220;An Evangelical Manifesto&#8221; (about which I have previously written here, here, and here). Actually, sharp isn&#8217;t a strong enough word. The sting of Neuhaus&#8217; essay is not so [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37466</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 22:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37466</guid>
		<description>Exactly Derek.  Brett, you willfully and dishonestly keep saying that people on here are suggesting that blind adherence to voting for Republicans is the right way to go.  We&#039;re not saying that at all.  We&#039;re merely pointing out the undeniable FACT that one party promotes anti-Christian ideologies while the other party (generally speaking and at least in its platform) promotes pro-family, pro-Christian, relatively Biblical ideals.  Obviously, in a secular party like the Republican Party, plenty of politicians don&#039;t truly care about some of these issues like I do.  But I really don&#039;t care if they don&#039;t, as long as they vote the way I want.  

That&#039;s probably where I disagree most with George&#039;s otherwise spot on comment: a politician doesn&#039;t have to be particularly moral (though it&#039;s usually quite helpful and makes him more consistent), he just has to vote correctly.  For example, I don&#039;t care if a bunch of Republican senators are gay, as long as they&#039;re willing to set aside any personal feelings on the matter (even if only for political expediency) and vote the right way.  If they&#039;re breaking the law, that&#039;s different.  

If a politician is merely pandering for my vote, but backs it up in his voting record, what do I care what his motives are?  And this is a very Biblical idea... God routinely used people for good when they were doing it for their own selfish reasons.  For example, read John 11:49-52.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly Derek.  Brett, you willfully and dishonestly keep saying that people on here are suggesting that blind adherence to voting for Republicans is the right way to go.  We&#8217;re not saying that at all.  We&#8217;re merely pointing out the undeniable FACT that one party promotes anti-Christian ideologies while the other party (generally speaking and at least in its platform) promotes pro-family, pro-Christian, relatively Biblical ideals.  Obviously, in a secular party like the Republican Party, plenty of politicians don&#8217;t truly care about some of these issues like I do.  But I really don&#8217;t care if they don&#8217;t, as long as they vote the way I want.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s probably where I disagree most with George&#8217;s otherwise spot on comment: a politician doesn&#8217;t have to be particularly moral (though it&#8217;s usually quite helpful and makes him more consistent), he just has to vote correctly.  For example, I don&#8217;t care if a bunch of Republican senators are gay, as long as they&#8217;re willing to set aside any personal feelings on the matter (even if only for political expediency) and vote the right way.  If they&#8217;re breaking the law, that&#8217;s different.  </p>
<p>If a politician is merely pandering for my vote, but backs it up in his voting record, what do I care what his motives are?  And this is a very Biblical idea&#8230; God routinely used people for good when they were doing it for their own selfish reasons.  For example, read John 11:49-52.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37459</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 17:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37459</guid>
		<description>Brett, I hope you won&#039;t misunderstand my point. The moral framework of each political party in our system matters a great deal. Until about 40 years ago, both major parties embraced a Biblically based &quot;natural law&quot; framework. It was not, and is not, set in stone that one party embrace this and another not. In fact, to your point, many in the Republican party are indeed turning towards the &quot;situational ethic&quot; I described above. That is a serious problem and in these cases, blind loyalty to the Republicans is dangerous and I don&#039;t believe that Christians should vote or back those politicians. 

But you do need to understand that even the entire apparatus of the Democratic party is focused like a laser beam on our courts - and they want to fill every court in the land with activist judges  who will make decisions just like the one made in California yesterday (same sex marriage ban overturned). I wish more Christians understood this. I hope you understand this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett, I hope you won&#8217;t misunderstand my point. The moral framework of each political party in our system matters a great deal. Until about 40 years ago, both major parties embraced a Biblically based &#8220;natural law&#8221; framework. It was not, and is not, set in stone that one party embrace this and another not. In fact, to your point, many in the Republican party are indeed turning towards the &#8220;situational ethic&#8221; I described above. That is a serious problem and in these cases, blind loyalty to the Republicans is dangerous and I don&#8217;t believe that Christians should vote or back those politicians. </p>
<p>But you do need to understand that even the entire apparatus of the Democratic party is focused like a laser beam on our courts &#8211; and they want to fill every court in the land with activist judges  who will make decisions just like the one made in California yesterday (same sex marriage ban overturned). I wish more Christians understood this. I hope you understand this.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37457</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 17:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37457</guid>
		<description>Yeah, and the Christians who support the Republican party are not being used as pawns to support their extremely dangerous and evil ideologies are they? No, not Republicans, they&#039;re the &quot;Christian&quot; party. Give me a break.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, and the Christians who support the Republican party are not being used as pawns to support their extremely dangerous and evil ideologies are they? No, not Republicans, they&#8217;re the &#8220;Christian&#8221; party. Give me a break.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37450</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 15:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37450</guid>
		<description>Agreed, Derek.  Christians who support the Democratic party are unwittingly (I hope) being used as pawns to further some extremely dangerous and evil ideologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Derek.  Christians who support the Democratic party are unwittingly (I hope) being used as pawns to further some extremely dangerous and evil ideologies.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37448</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 14:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37448</guid>
		<description>Darius, what George said can also be applied (and I still suspect he meant) to Democrats, elected at the local and municipal levels. Still, the larger point is that to the degree that well meaning Christians support the Democratic party through donations, votes and volunteer efforts, they are sadly being used to fuel a movement that seeks to replace Christian natural law (the system our Constitution is based upon) with a constantly evolving (and devolving) moral framework that can be best summed up as situational ethics. 

What is more, the Democratic party leadership embraces this radical restructuring and &lt;b&gt;fully understands that the way to do this is through the courts, via radical, activist judges who have passed their dogma, that morality is ultimately based on mankind and society and is therefore subjective and evolving&lt;/b&gt;. 

I don&#039;t think that most Christians understand how corrosive this is and how damaging it is to the future of our nation and subsequent generations. Herein lies my fundamental problem with the Manifesto - not that it damages the pro-life cause - but that it alleges that the moral framework of the left and the right are ultimately equal and/or flawed. This obscures the reality that the two frameworks are polar opposites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darius, what George said can also be applied (and I still suspect he meant) to Democrats, elected at the local and municipal levels. Still, the larger point is that to the degree that well meaning Christians support the Democratic party through donations, votes and volunteer efforts, they are sadly being used to fuel a movement that seeks to replace Christian natural law (the system our Constitution is based upon) with a constantly evolving (and devolving) moral framework that can be best summed up as situational ethics. </p>
<p>What is more, the Democratic party leadership embraces this radical restructuring and <b>fully understands that the way to do this is through the courts, via radical, activist judges who have passed their dogma, that morality is ultimately based on mankind and society and is therefore subjective and evolving</b>. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that most Christians understand how corrosive this is and how damaging it is to the future of our nation and subsequent generations. Herein lies my fundamental problem with the Manifesto &#8211; not that it damages the pro-life cause &#8211; but that it alleges that the moral framework of the left and the right are ultimately equal and/or flawed. This obscures the reality that the two frameworks are polar opposites.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37443</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 13:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37443</guid>
		<description>Derek, I think George was talking more about Democrats not in leadership, just your everyday Christians.  I agree about the party as a whole, they oppress any views that aren&#039;t lockstep with their platform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, I think George was talking more about Democrats not in leadership, just your everyday Christians.  I agree about the party as a whole, they oppress any views that aren&#8217;t lockstep with their platform.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37442</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 12:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37442</guid>
		<description>George, you said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;There are probably many pro-life Democrats out there (especially in the African American communities) who diligently fight on a grassroots level against pre-marital sex, rape, and the wanton killing of all innocent lifeâ€“whether by abortion or by gang violence.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

George, I wish that were true. I think we all wish that was true. There are indeed some Democrat citizens and a handful of politicians who support life and oppose things like gang violence. They should be applauded. But I don&#039;t think you understand how tough the litmus test is for you to rise through leadership in the Democratic Party - there are good men and pro-life Democrats like Bob Casey, Zell Miller and Glenn Poshard (who I voted for a few years ago here in Illinois). But the unfortunate reality is that the entire fundraising and strategic apparatus of the Democratic party is so fundamentally opposed to life issues and a traditional Christian worldview, that these men were extremely limited in their ability to move up through the ranks of the party. Casey is allowed to remain in the party b/c he is in a Catholic, mostly pro-life state, Zell Miller was basically pushed out (he wrote an interesting book about this) and Glenn Poshard&#039;s candidacy was met with utter indifference as well as hostility by his fellow Democrats, so he lost when a number of Democrats crossed over to vote for George Ryan, the corrupt and now jailed former Illinois governor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George, you said:</p>
<blockquote><p>There are probably many pro-life Democrats out there (especially in the African American communities) who diligently fight on a grassroots level against pre-marital sex, rape, and the wanton killing of all innocent lifeâ€“whether by abortion or by gang violence.</p></blockquote>
<p>George, I wish that were true. I think we all wish that was true. There are indeed some Democrat citizens and a handful of politicians who support life and oppose things like gang violence. They should be applauded. But I don&#8217;t think you understand how tough the litmus test is for you to rise through leadership in the Democratic Party &#8211; there are good men and pro-life Democrats like Bob Casey, Zell Miller and Glenn Poshard (who I voted for a few years ago here in Illinois). But the unfortunate reality is that the entire fundraising and strategic apparatus of the Democratic party is so fundamentally opposed to life issues and a traditional Christian worldview, that these men were extremely limited in their ability to move up through the ranks of the party. Casey is allowed to remain in the party b/c he is in a Catholic, mostly pro-life state, Zell Miller was basically pushed out (he wrote an interesting book about this) and Glenn Poshard&#8217;s candidacy was met with utter indifference as well as hostility by his fellow Democrats, so he lost when a number of Democrats crossed over to vote for George Ryan, the corrupt and now jailed former Illinois governor.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37440</link>
		<dc:creator>Darius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 12:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37440</guid>
		<description>Amen, George.  I just don&#039;t know that the EM is saying what you think it says.  If so, it could have been a lot more clear on that.  It says all this nice stuff, but in the end, it doesn&#039;t call us to do anything.  What is the practical application that they are intending?  To do as you have suggested, to prioritize the Gospel above all else?  Or to prioritize other political agendas?  To some who wrote/signed it, it meant the former.  To more, it means the latter.  Such a document should not be so vague as to allow both sides to sign.  Unity that obfuscates the truth is not real unity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, George.  I just don&#8217;t know that the EM is saying what you think it says.  If so, it could have been a lot more clear on that.  It says all this nice stuff, but in the end, it doesn&#8217;t call us to do anything.  What is the practical application that they are intending?  To do as you have suggested, to prioritize the Gospel above all else?  Or to prioritize other political agendas?  To some who wrote/signed it, it meant the former.  To more, it means the latter.  Such a document should not be so vague as to allow both sides to sign.  Unity that obfuscates the truth is not real unity.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.dennyburk.com/a-response-to-daniel-wallace/#comment-37438</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 11:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennyburk.com/?p=1969#comment-37438</guid>
		<description>To be sure, abortion, gay marriage, the sex-slave trade (what&#039;s going on in Southeast Asia), prostitution, heroin, crack, satanic cults, new age mysticism, Scientology, Islam, etc., are abominations concocted in the pit of hell. However, it is not the Church&#039;s PRIMARY job to force pagans to live by God&#039;s standards. Our PRIMARY job is to tell them about Jesus, so that they might be transformed and begin to willingly live by God&#039;s standards. The root cause of the abortion problem (or any other) is not that we lack sufficient laws (and no, it&#039;s not poverty, either), but with our hearts. As Calvin said, &quot;...man&#039;s nature...is a perpetual factory of idols.&quot; 

In other words, we are so selfish, concerned with feeding our sensual appetites and asserting our wills, that the life of an unborn human doesn&#039;t mean anything to us. What America needs to do is repent of its idolatry, of worshiping the self, the gods of sex, drugs, and rock&#039;n&#039;roll, and every other thing under the sun. Unfortunately, the government can&#039;t pass that into law (unless you hold to Postmillennialism/Christian Reconstructionism/Theonomy).

So, yes, it is not either/or! Let the church fight for the rights of the unborn! But let this fight not be the PRIMARY (or ONLY) association that is made with the term Evangelical (or Christian)--which I believe is what the EM is trying to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be sure, abortion, gay marriage, the sex-slave trade (what&#8217;s going on in Southeast Asia), prostitution, heroin, crack, satanic cults, new age mysticism, Scientology, Islam, etc., are abominations concocted in the pit of hell. However, it is not the Church&#8217;s PRIMARY job to force pagans to live by God&#8217;s standards. Our PRIMARY job is to tell them about Jesus, so that they might be transformed and begin to willingly live by God&#8217;s standards. The root cause of the abortion problem (or any other) is not that we lack sufficient laws (and no, it&#8217;s not poverty, either), but with our hearts. As Calvin said, &#8220;&#8230;man&#8217;s nature&#8230;is a perpetual factory of idols.&#8221; </p>
<p>In other words, we are so selfish, concerned with feeding our sensual appetites and asserting our wills, that the life of an unborn human doesn&#8217;t mean anything to us. What America needs to do is repent of its idolatry, of worshiping the self, the gods of sex, drugs, and rock&#8217;n'roll, and every other thing under the sun. Unfortunately, the government can&#8217;t pass that into law (unless you hold to Postmillennialism/Christian Reconstructionism/Theonomy).</p>
<p>So, yes, it is not either/or! Let the church fight for the rights of the unborn! But let this fight not be the PRIMARY (or ONLY) association that is made with the term Evangelical (or Christian)&#8211;which I believe is what the EM is trying to say.</p>
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